May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you if mean what PG correction factor should be taken for the battle map I agree with Vize-Adm Hubert Schmundt about it :
Dear Kpt zur See Helmut Brinkmann, ... you map is USELESS and WORTHLESS ! Just go back home and look at the gunnery reports and do it again !
So a much worst performance than Suffolk indeed if we compare the difficulties, I fully agree with you !

From a navigating stand point I cannot compare as the Prinz Eugen was not delivering her own geographical positioning I can compare with a good enough map.

But as soon as I will publish my latest work, than you can ALL compare a lot of very new and never published infos and maps, ... either OLD ( wrong ) and NEW ( corrected ) ... :wink:

I can anticipate you that I am having a lot of fun re-constructing on a plot with detailed geographical positioning details, ... 1centimeter=1 sea mile, so very precisely, ... everything from midnight until soon after the battle, ... into an area that is 180 sea miles tall ( from 63 to 66 NORTH ) and 156 sea miles large ( from 27 to 33 WEST ).

This way I can see what Adm Pound and Adm Tom Phillips saw about all this ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Herr Nilsson »

I think Sean refers to the error of position at 13:46 hours.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

thanks Marc, but I do not know about the details of it, ... can you provide me some more infos. What that as to do with all this ?

I am concentrated on filling this up as best as I can and I will go soon to PRO in London to find new evidences too ... but I am already well done ... :wink:
30_November_2013_01.jpg
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Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by wadinga »

Hi All,

Marc is spot on, as usual. The general map on p 74 of the PG KTB shows a massive track shift to the NE but I zoom I lose the resution and can't read the text. Is this at 13:46?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Herr Nilsson »

According PG's war diary it was 13:46 hours.
1346 hours.jpg
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Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by wadinga »

Hello Marc,

You always come up with the goods :D A colossal jump in position for PG! Suffolk's mispositioning was unfortunate, but such things happen. This is why taking things like the unexplained purple annotations on PoW Plan 4, without any independent corroberation as gospel information on the relative locations of Norfolk and Suffolk is so misleading, and dangerous when allegations of dereliction of duty are based on such flimsy evidence.

PG was reporting GHG alarms of propeller noises pretty continuously from all sorts of bearings through the early hours of the 24th. They may have been real, or completely imaginary like the torpedoes avoided at 06:03.

It seems to me the brief course change by the Germans just before DS might have been to create an aspect change on a GHG "bogey". Changing the orientation of the hydrophones to the incoming sound wave fronts might help confirm whether the "target" is real or not.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

now I see and I understand, you are looking at the very large scale map of Op. Rheinubung map, the one with the quadrants .

Sorry, my fault I was only looking and concentrated on the much more precise and detailed PG map I purchased from Bundesarchiv that someone put on this book on very low quality some time ago without really realizing what the map tells us.

Here it is what I am looking at from the German side :
PG_map.jpg
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There is no need Sean for you to convince me that Brinkmann was similar to the Royal Navy officers we are evaluating here from a military stand point.

But at least I have as you can see a well defined track plot of his ship available, with his track and the enemy ones he evaluated.

For the Royal Navy ones of Suffolk and Norfolk I need to go to PRO and find out myself what has been given to RearAdm Wake-Walker but as of today, never showed nor published by anybody.
They exist but they are not yet available to me, ... I only have an invented PLOT ... absolutely false, ... and a wrongly draw Plan 3 for Adm Tovey dispatches, ... full of wrong infos as well.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by wadinga »

Hi Anntonio,

The point is PG's navigators made just as large an error as Suffolk's.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

this is what I am " hunting for " now, ... I have the Prinz Eugen most defined track one, ... I need Suffolk and Norfolk ... and more ... :wink:

Any help is welcome .... :wink:
Ellis_to_WW_11_June_1941.jpg
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Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

now that I do not run anymore the risk of being immediately copied on Bismarck stuffs, I can share some more material.

Do you know those maps ? They were printed in Germany on 1967.

What do you find as a difference comparing them with the Battle Summary Nr. 5 Plan 3 ???

Comments welcome.
Fechter_Schomakers_01.jpg
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Fechter_Schomakers_02.jpg
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Lets together work on a new piece of real history research, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I have found on PRO in KEW all I was looking for about this story.

The original maps and original radio logs demonstrate that Suffolk and Norfolk failed positioning themselves since the 23rd evening until the 20.00 on the 24th, of May, when they had to write on their war diaries their positions ( was due every day at 08.00, 12.00 and 20.00 ).

This caused the interception error done by Adm Holland at 02.00 the 23rd night.

I have evaluated the error factors for both Norfolk and Suffolk, and it was a huge distance they failed radio reporting them all the way thru.

Holland was always referring to wrong enemy positions information during the approach.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I need your help guys.

This squared coded areas belong to Denmark Strait and were used by David Mearns to find HMS Hood wreck.
Coded_DS_area_RN.jpg
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I need you to help me enlarging the area with a lot more squared code inputs all around those ones, from 60 to 70 North and from 20 to 35 West at least.

Does anybody have those coded area maps used by Royal Navy on WW 2 ? Apparently they were used also by RAF airplanes ... :wink:

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,


Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum ! ... I MADE IT !!!! ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

it is time to re-open this thread knowing now who were the key players on board the CS1 Heavy cruisers that night.

On board the HMS Norfolk, apart from RearAdm Wake-Walker and Capt Phillips :

- Lieutenant-Commander Sidney Hugh Pinchin -> Adm Staff -> Staff Operations and working the plot.
- Lieutenant David William Maurice Boyle ( Viscount Kelburn ) -> Adm Staff -> Signal Officer, D/F, decoding and transmissions.
- Lieutenant-Commander Norman Kelso Tod (N) -> Norfolk Navigating Officer

On board the HMS Suffolk, apart from Capt Ellis :

- Lieutenant-Commander Brian Cotterill Howe (N) -> Suffolk Navigating and Signals Officer
- Lieutenant-Commander Charles Trusson Collett -> Suffolk Torpedo and lookout ( Air+Surface) Officer

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

Well I can imagine where this is going, :( but here is additional information.
Quoted in John Winton's "The War at Sea" is Instructor Lieutenant-Commander David Paton Suffolk's Plotting Officer whilst shadowing Bismarck. "I had never seen the needle touch thirty knots before, and it was difficult to use the ruler on the Plotting table."
so obviously assistant to Howe.

Re-reading the thread, I still cannot see where you have accepted that PG and Bismarck had to make every bit as large, possibly larger adjustment to their position than Suffolk, when they got a sun sight at 13:46. Marc has reproduced a similar map Dec 1st 2013 below, but it incorporates the German two letter plus numbered square overlay. It shows only PG's track and incorporates the accumulated error in position until they got their sun sight. An enormous position correction of (apparently) tens of miles to the NE. I have previously requested that someone with the necessary knowhow please reproduce at high quality Wegekarte Prinz Eugen Blatte 2 from P77 of the PG KTB so the annotations can be read. :pray: :pray: :pray:

This recorded in the KTB as follows
13:46 The first dead reckoning control since Norway is performed using two sun sightlines. This reveals a considerable error of position of the battle group toward the North East. Fleet orders to take a mid position fix.
German navigation was every bit as bad as the British. that's how it was in 1941. Please can we avoid a detour into how much more wonderful german radar was than British because they could have used the mountains of Iceland as a fix except they didn't beacause their last fix was Norway. Therefore their accumulated error is probably much, much larger than the British who did get a fix the previous day.

All the subsequent maps you have reproduced do not show this original PG track with the position correction, and show information about the British ships' positions Brinkmann could not know at the time. That is because they were created later, and retrospectively incorporate extrapolations back from later sightings and B-Dienst decodings to derive approximate British tracks.

These maps you have used are the german equivalent of Pinchin's Plot, a subsequent rationalisation, retrospectively adjusting the ship's track to smooth out the huge error at 13:56, by adjusting the track before this time, and adding in the estimated tracks of the British.

But at least I have as you can see a well defined track plot of his ship available, with his track and the enemy ones he evaluated.
No, you don't, because you are looking at the wrong plot! :shock:

Now when the British produce a similar rationalisation, again based on limited and sometimes contradictory information, you create a Giant Conspiracy and Cover-Up theory.

I'm afraid really don't seem to understand the most basic principles of navigation, that DR error will build up over time, are different in different ships operating independently of each other, and can only be corrected with an external reference eg a sun sight or land sighting. The lats and longs and track recorded and plots of remote units estimated are all wrong in absolute terms and get increasingly wrong until you get that external reference.

We know from David Mearns' analysis that even Hood and PoW, in company with each other had different DR positions. Suffolk and Norfolk were way out of sight of one another and had wildly differing DR errors. Identified only when Ellis realised Bismarck would be on top of Norfolk, if his own DR error was vaguely similar to Norfolk's. He adjusted his position to Norfolk's position (Senior Officer is always right) when they got sight of each other later in the day. PG and Bismarck were together all along, but the battlegroup's combined position is corrected by tens of miles at 13:46.

As an experienced naval officer, Holland realised that just because Suffolk said she was at such and such a location, and Bismarck was 12 miles away this was only a guide. He could see how bad the weather was and how badly this would spoil DR and as you well know position reports included the details of when the last reliable position fix was made the previous day. He knew there was a big ellipse of uncertainty about the cruiser's reported positions and planned as well he could to compensate.

Holland's reputation today does not need your help, if it consists of denigration of the performance of several RN officers, based on ignorance of the reality of 1941 navigation, and a fantastical made-up story of distorted maps, conspiracy, bribery and 70 year cover-up. A sensible explanation, without the benefit of hindsight, of how limited the information he had to go on will suffice.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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