May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

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Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:30 pm

Hi All

Just had a look through those messages and there were two from destroyers in company with HMS Echo I think.

06.55 from Lz1 to Reykjavik giving position 62°46n 29°52w course 330° 13/18 knots Echo in company.

07.01 iwu to Scapa giving position 63°47n 31°11w course 217° 32 knots Echo in company.

Of course this could be from a ship and the commander of that ship explaining the 2 different designations but they are only 6 minutes apart with different locations courses and speeds which seems odd? If they were two different ships then the differing positions may make more sense?

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:53 pm

@Cag
Many thanks for the coordinates !

I inputed them here
https://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm

And... the distance between the 2 coordonates given is.... 131km (Lz1 6:55 vs iwu at 7:01) :shock:

Clearly something is strange.

Also, is "iwu" certainly the identication for Electra ?

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:57 pm

However, according to same calculator,
the 7:01 message coordinates (issued by "iwu") are at 72km from Hood's wreckage, using the approximate coordinates from here: http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/2001ex ... ncrypt.htm

72km at 32kts (60km/h)... means 1 hour 12 minutes... OR 8:13AM estimated time for arival. Which is pretty in line with other info that we have for HMS Electra arriving at the scene.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:24 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG and Alecsandros,

I gave you above already the 2 messages you are referring to in clear format :

1 ) From Antelope in company with Anthony :

- at 06.55 from LZ1 ( Antelope ) to Reykjavik giving position 62°46 N 29°52 W course 330° 28 knots Anthony in company.
Antelope_0655.jpg
Antelope_0655.jpg (13.24 KiB) Viewed 481 times
2) From Electra with Echo in company :

- at 07.01 IWU ( Electra ) to Scapa giving position 63°47 N 31°11 W course 217° 32 knots Echo in company.
Electra_0701.jpg
Electra_0701.jpg (10.77 KiB) Viewed 481 times
Just to facilitate you a correct set of evaluations ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:54 pm

Hi All

Thanks Alecsandros and Antonio, my notes say I noted those down from the Battleship Bismarck archives, the German intercepts of British signals in messages and telegrams. But your posts make more sense thanks.

I do think Alecsandros has got that about spot on, as we know from the Electra book and survivor accounts that it was some time after 08.00 that the survivors were seen after investigation of smoke that turned out to be a merchant ship, I think Briggs states that Electra spotted the survivors as she passed them, and she came back?

Plus thanks to Dunmonro we know that the first message giving details of the survivors (names rates and that they were heading for Reykjavik) was from the destroyer after 09.00.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:24 pm

Hello everybody,

@ All,

what we have realized now from those messages, ... it that Antelope and Anthony were coming from South East to reach the Hood sinking place, ... exactly as it should have been given their refuelling activity occurred in Iceland.

Regarding the 4 destroyers that were going to the North being detached by the 02.03 turn to South West of the BC1 battlecruisers, ... we have realized that at some point they surely got separated into 2 groups, ... Electra with Echo and the Achates with Icarus.

When this happened, how it happened and why, ... it is still to be discovered ... and can be the key of our enigma, ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by wadinga » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:04 pm

All,

It is a shame we cannot locate the Icarus transmission recorded by Wake-Walker at 04:45 as this would help clarify that CS1 thought BC1 and his destroyers were many, many miles astern and therefore incapable of catching up. This is despite the imaginative mapping which now seeks to place BC1 little more than 10 miles away on Norfolk's port bow for most of the period from 03:30 onwards on a morning when visibility was improving to more than 20 miles.

This imaginative mapping is based wholly on PoW's guesswork on where the cruisers were at 05:41 and those locations were according to the original PoW plots and were straightline DR approximations of course and speed from their inaccurate radioed positions from much earlier in the morning. There are no radio bearings on PoW's original plots after 03:38.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:45 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

I knew you were coming out in this way ... now that you are cornered by the bearings at 02.29 and 05.41 and the perfect correlation with the Norfolk strategical map track perfectly matching between them.

Sorry for you once again Sean, ... it is " Game Over " there as I told you, ... unless you find a more reliable set of inputs to be evaluated.

By the way, ... your estimated " ... little more than 10 sea miles away ... " ... since 03.20, ... are in reality always 18 sea miles at least, ... and when Norfolk turned toward BC1 at 05.00, ... soon after, ... at 05.16, ... she got immediately them on her port bow, ... and was at around 15 sea miles at 05.41 ... and at around 14 sea miles at 05.50 ( ref. Norfolk war diary -> probably was 05.48 in reality ) :wink:

Yes, it is a pity that we do not have that 04.45 message ... that would have helped a lot, ... :think:

... just thinking about it now ...

@ Dave Saxton,

can you be so kind to tell me the difference between the utilization and range of those radio frequencies :

- Fleet Wave ; 138 K c/s ; 500 K c/s ; 4,740 K c/s ; 8,290 K c/s

From Battle Summary Nr. 5 on the W/T ( Wireless Transmission ) chapter :
Royal_Navy_radio_frequencies.jpg
Royal_Navy_radio_frequencies.jpg (56.41 KiB) Viewed 466 times
Especially about the 138 K c/s W/T frequency specifications, because from Capt. Leach report we can read :
... at 23.34 "Prince of Wales" was signalled to report bearing of "Suffolk" by D/F on 138 Kc/s.
So, if I read correctly between PoW and Hood at " short " distance thay could break the " radio silence " as it seems clear to me, ... surely NOT being intercepted and NOT reaching Scapa or Iceland from where they could have listen to them and record those messages ( including the enemy ), ... and in fact it did NOT happen ... since we have NO evidence of those transmission that occurred in reality between PoW and Hood ... :think:

If I am right, ... as I think looking at those evidences, ... this means that most likely many other Royal Navy units when at close distance each others could use this W/T ( Wireless Transmission ) method too ... even if under " radio silence " officially ... and now I think about those 4 destroyers up there ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:50 pm

Antonio,
Don't want to sidetrack you here,
but if the coordinates are accurate, doesn't it appear that the distance (apparently 131km) between Electra and Antelope is a little bit to large ? :think: As if there wasn't any coordination between them whatsoever......

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:16 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

you are right, ... in fact I am NOT referring to Electra versus Antelope, ... but Electra ( or Echo ) versus the Achates ( or Icarus ) ... since those were the 4 destroyers up there close enough each others to be in condition to communicate one to another in the same way PoW did with the Hood using the 138 K c/s W/T methodology ... this is what I like to verify.

On the coming back after the sailing to North, the 4 destroyers were divided in 2 groups, ... Electra with Echo and Achates with Icarus, ... and they must have been in condition to communicate each others.

This is the reason why I need to find out the W/T specifications and range of that transmission methodology.

Antelope and Anthony, ... coming back after refueling from Iceland, ... where too far away to south east to do it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:58 am

Ah, got it. :wink:

Now... Electra 72km N-N-E of the sinking position, at 7:01, going course 217.

Backtracking on that course and speed, this would put Electra at 107km (58 nm) from the (approximate) sinking position of HMS Hood at 6:37...

[however, there are further backtracking possibilities... depending on the exact message on which Electra was initialy acting.... IMHO, the backtracking can go back all the way to 5:37... "enemy in sight" message from Prince of wales, which gave the coordinates of Prince of WAles, on which Electra could lock on to... ]

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:43 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

YES, ... now you got it right, ... but in my opinion Electra and Echo, ... and on the other hand Achates and Icarus, ... did start turning back from that northern run much earlier then the 05.37 PoW enemy in sight report.

Logic will tell us that just like being able to listen to the 06.37 Norfolk message, the 05.37 PoW enemy interception, ... they have been able to listen to the Suffolk 02.56 message too, ... and at that point in time everything was already clear and they knew where the 2 enemy warships they were looking for really where.

It is logic to assume that Commander May using that possibility given to him by the radio 138 K c/s wireless trasmission, ... should have started a South West run with the 4 destroyers he could communicate to.

This is more or less what I think could have been the real situation, with Electra and Echo more westward, ... Achates and Icarus more Eastward, ... Antelope and Anthony coming back after the Iceland refuel ( I should have put them below the map, ... but at least we can see from which direction they were coming from and what course ).

Now it is logic to realize why Electra and Echo where ahead of Achates and Icarus on the coming back toward the BC1 position.
Electra_0700_04.jpg
Electra_0700_04.jpg (88 KiB) Viewed 414 times
The destroyers searching front was around 80 sea miles according to Cain.

Now we can go backwards from the 07.00 known position ( Electra and Echo ) and try to re-construct their possible course ... with Achates and Icarus following them on the South West course ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:35 am

An interesnting, however UNSOURCED article about ELECTRA's night and morning events can be found here:

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/ ... s-electra/

From the article: " At 3:30 am on May 24, 1941, Electra’s captain, Commander Cecil Wakeford May, ordered the crew to action stations. He told his men to expect contact with the enemy at 6:00 am It was a cold, wet watch."
[...]
"Soon Electra received a radio message from Hood, “Enemy in sight, am engaging.” On deck, lookouts thought they heard the distant muffled guns of battle. In no more than 10 minutes, Prince of Wales sent another message. “Hood sunk!” "

It would be interesting the information would be authentic. But I can't verify it... :think:

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:36 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

thanks for the link, ... very interesting ... :think:

The time 03.30 can be a good input to be evaluated for the destroyer " comeback decision " taken by Commander May, ... because it is immediately after another Suffolk " key message " sent out at 03.20 when, ... after the 02.56 first confirmation of the enemy being in contact again by Suffolk ... it was further confirmed by the Suffolk ( with that 03.20 message ) that she was able to keep the enemy again under a continuous radar/visual surveillance and the shadowing being re-started there by Suffolk.

In fact, as an additional confirmation, you can see that also the Norfolk still sailing away toward South East on that moment, ... decided to comeback toward South West exactly after that 03.20 message from Suffolk, ... just as everybody can see on her strategical map.

Now I need to see and verify how it fits into a series of tracks for the 2 destroyers divided groups ( Electra+Echo and Achates+Icarus ) ... never to forget that also the " separation " at 02.03 could have been taken some more time and actions then we think ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:10 am

It's possible.
However, looking more , I think that the article is loosely based on (or draws part of the info from) this account:
http://www.hmshood.com/crew/remember/electra_taylor.htm

Which I do not think it's too accurate..... :silenced:

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