May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

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Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:17 pm

Hi All

May I ask Antonio if he knows if there is any written evidence in Wake-Walkers report as to the course bearing of Norfolk at any point.

I do have some info on Suffolk from Ellis's and Leach's reports but not Norfolk so as to orientate the tracks correctly.

Thanks in advance to anyone who may be able to help.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:11 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

you asked :
May I ask Antonio if he knows if there is any written evidence in Wake-Walkers report as to the course bearing of Norfolk at any point.
Before responding to you I would like to make sure I got correctly your question.

Are you asking if RearAdm Wake-Walker was writing on his own report the course of his own ship ( the true bearing course of Norfolk ) at any time between 19.22 of May 23rd first interception and the 06.00 of May 24th ?

Is this your question ?

In case that is your question the answer is : NO !

The only inputs we have are on the Norfolk own Strategical plot ( since the tactical plots been never found so far both for Norfolk as well as for Suffolk ) ... and on some radio transmitted messages.

We have a short period close view on "The Plot " too, ... even if it is NOT a perfect match with the own Strategical map ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:33 pm

Hi All

Ok thanks Antonio I just wondered if anything was in his report as I don't have access to that.

I'll go off the plot signals etc but thanks very much for your help.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:37 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

here they are for you to read it thru ...
ADM_234_509_page_87.jpg
ADM_234_509_page_87.jpg (81.95 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
ADM_234_509_page_88.jpg
ADM_234_509_page_88.jpg (94.08 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
On the top of the second page you can read the statement " ... and at 03.21 she ( the Suffolk ) sighted the enemy 12 ( sea ) miles away.

That is a very important statement, because at 03.20 the Norfolk got one important bearing of Suffolk while transmitting that message.

That bearing, together with the PoW 03.21 bearing of Suffolk from Plan 13 ( we can evaluate it being 336-337° at 03.11 and 339-340° at 03.36 ), ... once crossed each others ... will define the position of Suffolk at 03.20 - 03.21.

Here the PoW PLAN 13 to be evaluated, with the PoW taken bearings to Norfolk and Suffolk :
PoW_Suffolk_Norfolk.jpg
PoW_Suffolk_Norfolk.jpg (76.08 KiB) Viewed 1601 times
Having the PoW track precisely made, ... the reference from PoW to Norfolk at 02.29, ... the ones between Norfolk and Suffolk at 03.20 and 05.41, ... and finally the ones between PoW and Suffolk - Norfolk at 05.35, 05.37 and 05.41, ... closes the dabate and this re-construction effort.

Of course with due tolerances ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Hi All

Hi Antonio thank you very much for your post very kind of you. The willingness to help by everyone on the forum is something to be very grateful for and proud of, I do apologise for the length of time I'm taking in working out this battle map.

The more answers you find the more questions it raises. Some are almost impossible to answer, speeds bearing accuracy and timings just for example. I must add that I am sure my attempt will be inaccurate and that I am not in any way trying to replace Antonios map I am not as competent as Antonio.

Antonios battle map is the only existing definitive map, my hope was to see what the process demanded and what result I might find. I am sure there are far more experienced forum members better equipped than myself that can aid Antonio in any attempt he has to improve his maps.

I'm not using software to create anything just old fashioned parallel rulers dividers and protractor to understand how Pinchin created his map, and if anyone is kind enough to be interested in seeing my bad attempt I'll be happy to send it to them. I hope that amongst my ramblings is something that may spark a debate that does improve our knowledge.

I'll keep on plugging away and asking perhaps stupid questions, one thing I have discovered is how difficult it is to be accurate as there are so many interpretated variables that influence the outcome.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by alecsandros » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:16 pm

.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:36 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

I have read your above post with great pleasure and I am the one thanking you for the very nice and kind words.

This is what really count for me on those forums, fairness and kindness, together with our common passion for history research.

Take your time and do not feel you need to hurry up because you do not have to demonstrate anything to anybody.

If you, like everybody else including me, can bring on this table value add and positive researched results, you will always be welcome and there is really no dead line, nor a target time to be respected.

As I said any additionl help, or positive challenge on my work is giving me a great support and advantage on progressing my map final definition, ... and this approach so far has demonstrated being the correct one, ... because despite the many fights and discussions, ... sometimes very " hot " for what I am used to have, ... my work is progressing nicely.

Here on this forum there are for sure some of the best competences available in the world, ... so if my work can stand up here, ... it will be surely highly appreciated once published on few years.

I am very interested on take a look at your work attempt, so you can send it to me at my e-mail address ... and please, since you are part of this " team " or " discussion group ", ... feel free to ask anything you like to know or have.

I am glad you realized very well how difficult it is to put all this together ... :wink:

In this regard, once you have realized the 02.29 ( PoW to Norfolk ) 03.20 ( Norfolk+PoW to Suffolk ) 05.35 ( PoW to Suffolk ) and 05.41 ( Norfolk to Suffolk ) you will have all the tracks properly positioned on the grid.

At that point you can just verify and utilize my reconstructed " Plot " with the correct bearings and battle field dimensions, this one :
Plot_redone_adjusted_bearings_007.jpg
Plot_redone_adjusted_bearings_007.jpg (79.49 KiB) Viewed 1562 times


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by wadinga » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:20 pm

Hi All But particularly Antonio,

I would like to record my genuine admiration for Antonio in posting more vital original material. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Despite our differences of interpretation, I have always been impressed by his generosity in so doing, and I hope he does indeed feel that a meeting of minds studying the same material will gradually cleave towards the truth.

Antonio, can you confirm there are lat long marks on the Plan 13 or as I have nicknamed it the action plot? Are there sufficient to generate a grid and derive positions for significant points like Norfolk's course change represented at 02:39? Or Suffolk's at 02:47, 02:57 or 03:21? If these tick marks correspond with those ships radio-reported positions (ie including their unknown positioning errors of which they were not aware) and if their subsequent tracks based on these erroneous positions D/R'd to final 05:37 & 05:41 positions give the positions shown at the southern end of Plan 13 relative to PoW, then we prove these positions are erroneous and thus the Diamond of Death is erroneous.

We know there are some lat long locations on Plan 13. Are there sufficient to do this? :cool:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:19 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

thanks for your fairness and kind words, ... you know well that those have always been my intentions since the beginning of these researches, ... :clap:

Moving to your request the answer is YES, there is a map reference grid and I will post it soon too, ... but please keep in mind that also PoW navigation was not so precise, ... not so incorrect as Norfolk and Suffolk ... but still not precise as Commander Warrand on Hood has been. Commander Warrand has been the best doing it. :clap:

The confirmation of what I am stating here above is contained into the PoW enemy interception report coordinates that do not match with the ones released by Hood some minutes after, ... and that will be the " correction factor " for PoW, ... and you can see this fact in graphic form on " The Plot " as well ( PoW 63°20'N-31°28'W at 05.37 versus Hood 63°20'N-31°49'W at 05.43 ), ... and this correction factor is around 6/7 sea miles toward west.

What is very important on the PoW Plan 13 map are the bearings of Norfolk and Suffolk and her own ( PoW ) track that can be associated now to a correct geographical reference thanking Commander Warrand precise navigation plotting that day.

In fact the only reliable coordinates references are the ones of HMS Hood at interception report, ... by Commander Warrand, ... the ones that drove David Mearns to find the Hood wreck.

The grid must be based on those ( Warrand -> Hood ) geographical coordinates as I have explained at the very beginning of this thread, ... everything else needs to be adjusted, ... including the PoW maps, ... to those geographical references to make a precise enough final battle map.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by wadinga » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:04 am

Hello All,
Now we can all look at part of PoW's action plot we can examine the PoW recorded D/F bearings.

The D/F bearings on Suffolk throw up some interesting points. The 02:39 bearing intersects PoW's track at a point which corresponds to that time, but the 02:52 apparently doesn't. Why not? :? These representations should all correlate with those time points on PoW's track. Somebody in PoW was supposed to start a bearing at the correct point on the PoW track and out there somewhere along that line was Suffolk.

As for the times themselves it should be possible to correlate each with the Time of Origin of Suffolk's reports within the few previous minutes.

When we have enough of this chart to derive lat and long we will see whether PoW's navigator simply plotted the cruisers' reported (incorrect) positions to derive these speculative tracks.

All the best

Wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Byron Angel » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:37 am

Just curious - Whereas this action took place at a very northerly latitude, has the truncation of the latitude-longitude rectangle (actually a tall trapezoid) been taken into account when assessing relative positions?

B

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:35 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

as promised, here you have the map and the grid for latitude and longitude already made so it will be easy for you to realize what you are looking for :
PoW_Plan_13_grid.jpg
PoW_Plan_13_grid.jpg (74.87 KiB) Viewed 1428 times
You can clearly see on this map the evident navigational error of PoW as well, ... very evident on " The Plot "too ... and clearly demostrated by Commander Warrand last radio message precise positioning of the HMS Hood.

@ Byron Angel,

you asked :
Just curious - Whereas this action took place at a very northerly latitude, has the truncation of the latitude-longitude rectangle (actually a tall trapezoid) been taken into account when assessing relative positions?
Yes of course, in there most likely there is the solution for the evident Suffolk and Norfolk navigational errors starting the night of May 23rd, ... at least according to Graham Rhys-Jones, ... and to my personal opinion too.

If you go back on this thread you can read I am mentioning this parameter several times.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by wadinga » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:20 pm

All,

Once again a mighty thank-you to Antonio for outstanding generosity in providing a version of the Plan 13 Action Plan with superimposed Cartographic Grid. All that is essential to establish whether the relative positions of the cruisers to PoW is based solely on their reported positions and courses as received by PoW is here. In the past unrecorded M/F D/F bearings have been invoked to confirm their positions relative to PoW at around 05:41.

If we take Norfolk's radio report 02:29 and associated position plotted on Plan 13 we see Norfolk plotted there but Norfolk reports no course for herself. The only significant thing is that the only source of usable positioning information are the incorrect values from Norfolk's report. She will not have the same positioning errors as PoW and the position recorded is a best guess only. Her relative bearing and distance will be wrong but it is "better than nothing".

PoW does get a M/F D/F bearing on this transmission confirming that Norfolk's plotted position is wrong. Norfolk is somewhere out along that bearing, distance unkown. Half an hour later PoW gets the welcome news that Suffolk is reporting Bismarck's course and speed and relative position to Suffolk's extremely incorrect position. Norfolk has not reported her own course and speed so PoW's plotter makes a guess that it will conform to Bismarck's and so draws a course for Norfolk paralleling 240 degrees and speed 28 knots. This guessed track is arrow straight and places Norfolk where she is represented at 05:41. The distance scale will indicate what average speed is assumed between 02:29 and 05:41. If Antonio's generosity continues to shine he will publish the southern end of Plan 13 with the lat/long grid. Then we will glean more invaluable information. :D

For Cag: rather than invoking the well understood concept of converging parallels in cartography the factors affecting navigation in the Denmark Straits are well described here. https://www.iop.org/activity/groups/sub ... _56330.pdf
Remember averaging their errors the German ships were 90 miles out and Suffolk about 30 maybe. No fault, no error, inevitable in 1941.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:49 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

by comparing the grid and positions, you can very easily see how incorrect PoW navigation was, ... and consequenty how incorrectly they plotted the Norfolk in relation to their own incorrect position on that map, the same applies to Suffolk of course.

This is the reason why you only have to take Commander Warrand correct 05.41 position, and reconstruct backwards the PoW track as I did, ... and after take only the Norfolk and Suffolk key bearings ( 02.29, 03.20 and 05.41 ) from the other available maps, ... using those bearings and merging on the map the original Norfolk and Suffolk track in same scale.
NK_SK_PoW_at _0541_01.jpg
NK_SK_PoW_at _0541_01.jpg (75.38 KiB) Viewed 1415 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:22 pm

Hi All

Again thank you Wadinga and Antonio for your help, and to all those who offer advice, sometimes debates become a little heated on the forum but the generosity of people in helping others shines out.

Many thanks
Best wishes
Cag.

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