Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:13 am

Hello everybody,

during the battle of Denmark Strait, the two aircraft to overfly the ships were a Hudson piloted by F/O A.J. Pinhorn, and a Sunderland piloted by F/Lt R.J.Vaughan.

From the book " Flagship Hood " by Tedd Briggs :

The Electra managed to race to the scene of the disaster fifteen minutes ahead of her estimated arrival time, mainly because of a plot given by Flying Officer Pinhorn, the pilot of a Hudson of Coastal Command, who had also watched the battle.


http://archive.is/tuUT

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collectio ... il/1804385

Question to everybody : does anybody has ever seen or have the plot and the report of Flying Officer A.J. Pinhorn, the Coastal Command Hudson pilot ?




Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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José M. Rico
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby José M. Rico » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:47 pm

Antonio.
I think I have that somewhere but I can't find it right now.
Lockheed Hudson G/269 (Flying Officer A.J. Pinhorn) took off from Kaldaðarnes at 0400 hours on the 24th, (five minutes before the arrival of L/269) and although it later watched the battle at the Denmark Strait and the Hood blowing up, was not able to identify any of the ships. Sunderland Z/201 (Flight-Lieutenant R. J. Vaughn) was much better positioned and even came under fire from Bismarck and PG.

Best,

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:59 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Jose',

WHOW ! I cannot ask for anything better ... many thanks Jose' :wink:

Unfortunately as I was suspecting ... nothing special from it apparently ... but at least I am curious to see now how he directed HMS Electra on the Hood sinking position.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:15 pm

Hello everybody,

now everything is is my hands ! ... not only Pinhorn , ... much, much more.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby RNfanDan » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:32 am

I have lost the general course of this rather intense discussion as of late last year. When all the points, counterpoints, hypotheses and challenges are fed into and "crunched" by the "what really happened" machine, what will we finally have?

Will it all be something like a complete revision of our current, common-knowledge understanding?

Or, will it merely result in a number of "fine tunings" to the established record of the past 73 years?

Maybe something between these two outcomes?

I'm planning to be here for the finale, but I'd like a clue as to when to expect it!

Very intriguing so far, the back-and-forth wrangling over details notwithstanding, and I am very happy Antonio got the chance to travel to the UK to unearth whatever he ahs brought back with him!

Thanks everyone...
Image

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:18 pm

Hello everybody,

lately someone told me that the RAF airplanes were NOT able to radio communicate to the Royal Navy warships.

I just ask everybody here in what could have been, in your opinion, the way one of them was able to drive the HMS Electra to rescue the 3 Hood survivors as reported by Tedd Briggs on his book.

Tedd Briggs : " The Electra managed to race to the scene of the disaster fifteen minutes ahead of her estimated arrival time, mainly because of a plot given by Flying Officer Pinhorn, the pilot of a Hudson of Coastal Command, who had also watched the battle. "


Any idea ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby wadinga » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:56 pm

Antonio,

Before you get too excited, :D David Mearns identified two positions for Hood's sinking recorded by Wake-Walker who transmitted them to the destroyers so they could pick up survivors. They are in the record. They are in the B-Dienst decodes. Ted Briggs was undoubtedly wrong.

From http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/air/air15-415.htm we know the Sunderland pilot , Vaughn, did not even know which ships he was looking at. Communications would have been by morse code Aldis lamp, if possible, only.

A few days later Fleet Air Arm aircraft nearly torpedoed HMS Sheffield. They were both in the RN and yet their only means of communication was to flash by light, "Sorry about the kipper". At this time of the war RAF aircraft could not communicate direct with warships. Even Ark Royal's own planes only communicated with their carrier via morse code W/T. McMullen was not waiting to talk to an RAF aircraft about gunnery matters.

Over on the synopsis thread you have ignored the point that the rescuing destroyers which W-W believed were with Hood at 04:45 took an hour and a half's high speed steaming to reach her actual sinking location. So W-W thought the Hood was 1.5 hours steaming astern of him. Maybe you could answer that over there?

All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:59 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

have you read Vaughn and Pinhorn reports ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby wadinga » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:16 pm

Hello Antonio,

I referenced Vaughn's redacted report, and Pinhorn's report is reproduced in Mearn's book.He says Pinhorn saw Electra and Echo arrive at Hood's sinking site at 07:40. 1hr 40 minutes of flat out steaming since Hood was sunk.

He also says his estimate was that Pinhorn's position was 23 miles to the NW of reality and Vaughn's 30 nautical miles southwest. Good job it was impossible to radio a position to the rescuers, otherwise the survivors would have drowned for sure.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait : the airplanes !

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:05 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

OK, I see you have NOT read the full version of Vaughn and Pinhorn report ... :wink:

Similarly you have NOT read the W/T reports attached on the Bismarck Chase documentation, ... including the RAF Coastal Command one ... :wink:

Do not worry, when the full work will be published you will have your chance to read them Sean.

Meanwhile I suggest you a couple of good read just to realize the W/T possibilities between airplanes and ships at that time :

1) Book : John Campbell; Royal Air Force - Coastal Command ; Chapter 15

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Royal-Air-forc ... 1909544736

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotelephone

Where you can read that : " Marine radiotelephony first became common in the 1930s, and was used extensively for communications to ships and aircraft over water. "

It is NOT such an important point for me to explain you the W/T technology available on 1941, neither to demonstrate that McMullen was ready to talk to them being possible, just like talking to the Walrus, ...

... I remind you that my point was related to the fact that everybody including McMullen where ready to have some Flank Marking information ... no matter in which way it could arrive on that moment thru the W/T ... and that was correlated by me to the fact that also Suffolk and Norfolk felt that, in that moment, their duty was just to Flank Mark, ... after the shadowing.

How far do you think they where from Bismarck in order to do a correct BC1 warships Flank Marking, so the Hood and PoW fall of shells observation ?

Do you think that from over 20 sea miles it could be done ? I do NOT think so.

This is more important than the destroyers position and the W/T technology available on that moment and which one they were utilizing among the ones thay had available on board.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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