KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Forgive me if this question has already been answered.
The KGV or Rodney against Bismarck on a one to one has been discussed many times before with the general opinions being in favour of Bismarck, but in the final battle how would KGV or Rodney have coped on their own, bearing in mind that despite her steering difficulties Bismarck had all her guns functioning, would the end result have been the same but taking a little longer, or would either of the the British ships have to break off due to lack of fuel?
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@ Paul Mercer: it's just pure speculation, but in my poor opinion BS was already doomed by her rudders. No matter how many and how effective the British ships would have been against her. BS could not keep a stable course, thus her guns, albeit still efficient on paper, could not be very dangerous as fire solutions were continously affected by her erratic course. In addition while BS couldn't decide her course, the opponent(s) could choose their better course, distance and inclination to hammer her.
On May 27, there was no real battle, there was an execution.

Alone, I think Rodney would have done better than KGV because without her own main limitation (speed) being of any importance, she was (very) slightly better armoured than KGV and her punch was heavier and more reliable in terms of output. However, I think even the "Old Lady" (HMS Warspite) was more than enough to sink BS on May 27.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by dunmunro »

IMHO it was KGV who scored the majority of hits in the first 20mins or so and KGV would have silenced Bismarck sooner if she had not began confusing Rodney's salvos with her own, which impaired her gunnery for a 1/2 dozen salvos or so. KGV's radar and more modern FC systems gave her a huge advantage over Rodney.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro: Hi, you are right: in the initial stage KGV radar and FC could have been better than Rodney in a 1 to 1 confrontation. However, at distances that decreased up point blank, radar was not needed anymore and Rodney had a better output and punch. Just my opinion, of course.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by alecsandros »

... Rodney was also in front of KGV, fired first, and smoke from her guns and exhaust made observation more difficult on KGV, not to mention spotting fall of shot became rather difficult, with 15 (later 35) heavy guns thundering on the target...

To answer the start of the topic: KGV's turrets experienced problems during the battle, a fact that might make some big problems.
Bismarck's crew was exhausted, ship unmanouvreable, speed 7kts, erratic course, but it could still do some damage. Without the 9 heavy guns of the Rodney, it is conceivable that KGV would take some hits....

I don't see though a different outcome for the battle: Norfolk and Dorsetshire would launch torpedoes, than Vian's destroyers (whatever they had left), and the Bismarck would be scuttled...
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by paulcadogan »

I think it certainly would have taken longer for KGV on her own to subdue the crippled Bismarck. I'm not sure Bismarck would have done any better returning fire, for in the actual battle Bismarck was not hit for about 15 minutes and she still failed to directly hit Rodney despite coming close.

But can you imagine Tovey's grief when the turret breakdowns occurred and he only had B-turret functional for several minutes??

In reality if Rodney had not been there, Tovey would have called in Renown and sent either Norfolk or Dorsetshire to join Sheffield in babysitting Ark Royal.
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by Steve Crandell »

If the Germans had increased speed they could have used all of their guns at least part of the time as the ship circled instead of just A&B turrets. I think the command personnel had just given up and weren't really trying to do anything.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by alecsandros »

paulcadogan wrote:I think it certainly would have taken longer for KGV on her own to subdue the crippled Bismarck. I'm not sure Bismarck would have done any better returning fire, for in the actual battle Bismarck was not hit for about 15 minutes and she still failed to directly hit Rodney despite coming close.

But can you imagine Tovey's grief when the turret breakdowns occurred and he only had B-turret functional for several minutes??

In reality if Rodney had not been there, Tovey would have called in Renown and sent either Norfolk or Dorsetshire to join Sheffield in babysitting Ark Royal.
Hi Paul, as I understand it, 1 quad was out of action for about 20 minutes ?

Bismarck may have hit KGV, because in the hystorical battle, Rodney was straddled at semi-salvo 3, after which she changed course and was not hit anymore. KGV herself was straddled with semi-salvo 4 (aft guns), but immediately after the equipment of the aft tower was taken out by hits, leaving the turrets on local control.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Forgive me if this question has already been answered.
The KGV or Rodney against Bismarck on a one to one has been discussed many times before with the general opinions being in favour of Bismarck, but in the final battle how would KGV or Rodney have coped on their own, bearing in mind that despite her steering difficulties Bismarck had all her guns functioning, would the end result have been the same but taking a little longer, or would either of the the British ships have to break off due to lack of fuel?
I would have thought that the answer, given the fuel limitations placed on KGV, would be that insufficient time was available for KGV on its own to pound Bismarck into a wreck wihout Rodney's guns before KGV would have to break off and head for home. There was the option to bring in Renown, but that ship was excluded from the action to forestall another Hood disaster. Ultimately it does depend on how long Bismarck's guns do keep going and whether they can damage KGV.

Rodney on its own I think would run pretty close to the actual battle, with its time period extended by up to another hour. Rodney's fuel position was not as critical as that of KGV so could hang around a little longer.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by RF »

alecsandros wrote: , Rodney was straddled at semi-salvo 3, after which she changed course and was not hit anymore. .
There was the suggestion of a 5.9 inch shell hit on one of Rodney's turrets, which had no effect as the impact couldn't penetrate the armour plating..
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by dunmunro »

RF wrote:
paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Forgive me if this question has already been answered.
The KGV or Rodney against Bismarck on a one to one has been discussed many times before with the general opinions being in favour of Bismarck, but in the final battle how would KGV or Rodney have coped on their own, bearing in mind that despite her steering difficulties Bismarck had all her guns functioning, would the end result have been the same but taking a little longer, or would either of the the British ships have to break off due to lack of fuel?
I would have thought that the answer, given the fuel limitations placed on KGV, would be that insufficient time was available for KGV on its own to pound Bismarck into a wreck wihout Rodney's guns before KGV would have to break off and head for home. There was the option to bring in Renown, but that ship was excluded from the action to forestall another Hood disaster. Ultimately it does depend on how long Bismarck's guns do keep going and whether they can damage KGV.

Rodney on its own I think would run pretty close to the actual battle, with its time period extended by up to another hour. Rodney's fuel position was not as critical as that of KGV so could hang around a little longer.
KGV had the option to fuel in a neutral Eire port, or in Northern Ireland, but actually chose to refuel in Scotland. Tovey was short on fuel but he had many options if needs be.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by dunmunro »

paulcadogan wrote:I think it certainly would have taken longer for KGV on her own to subdue the crippled Bismarck. I'm not sure Bismarck would have done any better returning fire, for in the actual battle Bismarck was not hit for about 15 minutes and she still failed to directly hit Rodney despite coming close.

But can you imagine Tovey's grief when the turret breakdowns occurred and he only had B-turret functional for several minutes??

In reality if Rodney had not been there, Tovey would have called in Renown and sent either Norfolk or Dorsetshire to join Sheffield in babysitting Ark Royal.
The turret problem did not occur until ~32 mins into the battle and until KGV had fired well over 200 rnds. Exactly when the first hits on Bismarck occurred is hard to say, but RN accounts state that she was hit quickly and Tovey states that she was largely silenced within 30 mins.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
paulcadogan wrote:I think it certainly would have taken longer for KGV on her own to subdue the crippled Bismarck. I'm not sure Bismarck would have done any better returning fire, for in the actual battle Bismarck was not hit for about 15 minutes and she still failed to directly hit Rodney despite coming close.

But can you imagine Tovey's grief when the turret breakdowns occurred and he only had B-turret functional for several minutes??

In reality if Rodney had not been there, Tovey would have called in Renown and sent either Norfolk or Dorsetshire to join Sheffield in babysitting Ark Royal.
The turret problem did not occur until ~32 mins into the battle and until KGV had fired well over 200 rnds. Exactly when the first hits on Bismarck occurred is hard to say, but RN accounts state that she was hit quickly and Tovey states that she was largely silenced within 30 mins.
"Silenced" by 19 heavy guns, not 10. And forced to divide fire between 2 ships instead of concentrating on 1 (when the aft arcs were opened).
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by RF »

dunmunro wrote: KGV had the option to fuel in a neutral Eire port, or in Northern Ireland, but actually chose to refuel in Scotland. Tovey was short on fuel but he had many options if needs be.
De Valara would not have allowed it, particulary as the Luftwaffe had already accidently bombed Dublin in mistake for Belfast. The Irish nationalists would have brooked no aid to Britain anyway (as evidenced by the Irish volunteer servicemen in the British forces being stripped of Eire citizenship) and from the British perspective if Eire did service British warships then there was the risk Erie would do the same for German U-boats.....
Remember that when Nazi Germany did surrender in May 1945 the Dublin embassy was the last German diplomatic post to close... and did so of its own volition.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: KGv without Rodney in the final battle

Post by paulcadogan »

dunmunro wrote:The turret problem did not occur until ~32 mins into the battle and until KGV had fired well over 200 rnds. Exactly when the first hits on Bismarck occurred is hard to say, but RN accounts state that she was hit quickly and Tovey states that she was largely silenced within 30 mins.
Oh I'm very much aware of when KGV's turret problems started. I was just thinking that once the problems started Tovey would have been very frustrated if Bismarck was still afloat and his main weapon was malfunctioning!

Incidentally, I had to come to her defence recently in another forum in which it was stated by a contributor the KGV was largely out of it and Rodney was virtually the sole architect of Bismarck's destruction. By the time I was done with them I was being thanked profusely for all the info I'd provided - they saw the battle in a whole new light! :wink:

339 14-inch shells fired vs. Rondey's 380 16-inch - a difference of just 4 KGV broadsides. KGV certainly pumped out more than enough shells too do the job.
In the action KING GEORGE V had fired 339 x 14in shells and 660 x 5.25in shells. Gunnery performance was below the expected standard because of design deficiencies in the interlock system to protect against explosions during loading of the 14in guns. For 7 minutes she was firing at only 80% efficiency and at 40% for 23 minutes. Only B-Turret, the twin, was 100% trouble free. In addition the low freeboard forward caused significant flooding of shell rooms in the heavy weather.
From:http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... orge_V.htm

Are those "efficiency" percentages and times correct?

But I still say that once KGV was heavily engaged, Tovey would have brought in Renown, just as he would have brought in Repulse had the interception on the morning of the 25th taken place...
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Post Reply