Bismarck second hit on PoW : HACS Director

[paulcadogan]

The 5.25in gunnery problems may, in fact, give us a valuable clue that Hood actually exploded at 0558-0559 so that PoW was making her emergency turns sooner, thus allowing for the 5.9in hit to disable the forward HADTs, but it may be that the geometry of the hit can still be explained without PoW making an emergency turn but I haven't looked at that in detail.

THANK YOU DUNCAN!! It is nice to have someone else actually SAY that!

Please see my post on page 6 (7th post down) of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6314&start=75

Even Fritz Otto Busch observed and reported the same sequence....

Now the [opponent’s] ship fires: the housings of the stacks light up bright pink in the reflection of the afterglow. Now his intermediate artillery also fires. Flashes came from below the superstructures and from behind the aft funnel. It is not a continuous level string like on the “Hood”: these are distinct separated shot groups from the 13.2 cm guns that are firing here.

The opponent turns now somewhat towards us, since – as it became known shortly thereafter – he had to dodge the ruins of his flagship.

We also know that Jasper "zeroed in" on PoW at about 0559 - so the hit could very well have been 8-inch - especially since we know PG fired other dud shells.

McMullen's report nails down the timing of this hit and no amount of bearing estimation which, you rightly said, is just that...estimation....can negate that.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

... again, ... 300 gallons of HOT water into the bridge were never mentioned by anybody before the Compass Platform hit was received, ... if that has happened than Esmond Knight was NOT going to loose his eyes.

The questions stand :

1 ) Why Capt Leach associated this hit with the Compass Platform one as a 381 mm Bismarck shell ?

2) Why the initial damage report ONLY mentioning a 150 mm or a 203 mm shell possibility for this hit, ... was than later including the 381 mm as a possibility and removed the 150 mm one .... on his final version issued AFTER the initial report ?

Bye Antonio

[paulcadogan]

Leach just made an assumption...

McMullen too described the hit as 15-inch which I suppose he simply assumed it was. He was wrong in that, Leach was wrong in that.

Water leakage can start slowly, then increase dramatically and suddenly - we see that all the time in our environment - possibly even the concussion of the compass platform hit may have set off the deluge from the already damaged structure. That is pure speculation on my part, but nevertheless plausible.

The fact that the HACS hit derailed the firing of the 5.25's after only 3 salvos is indisputable. McMullen's account is too detailed and precise on time and range.

But isn't it amazing how events and occurrences can conspire to confuse???

[Alberto Virtuani]

Paul Cadogan wrote: "The fact that the HACS hit derailed the firing of the 5.25's after only 3 salvos is indisputable. McMullen's account is too detailed and precise on time and range. "

Hi Paul,
however it is even more difficult to dispute the damage report angle of the shell as it was calculated based on real measurements, and the damage report diagram puts PoW on course 260 at the time the hit was received. I agree that McMullen statement seems to confirm that just 3 salvos were fired, but there is no time for 5,25" battery cease fire in his report.

So you are right, facts conspire to confuse.

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

All,

Alberto has said

and the damage report diagram puts PoW on course 260 at the time the hit was received.

I couldn't agree more. Which proves what the Baron, Busch, Brooks, Hunter-Terry and Coates (and some others) said all along. And disproves Rowell's maps and hence Antonio's timeline.

PoW turned after Hood onto 260 degrees because Hood was obviously in distress, so could not signal and was turning herself (rudder evidence) and PoW was too close to the Germans and must turn, so she did and took the DCT hit. The first hit from PG. Maybe it was this hit that blinded Knight. The cascade of hot water may have stayed inside the bridge structure and gone nowhere near the ADO position. We have not yet considered the crane hit which Coates times as happening whilst PoW was turning to port, but before Hood blew up and which disabled the after HA/DCT. Another strike perhaps for the sure shooting PG! Tarrant says the detonation was of a low order for a 15". Alberto do you also have the dockyard report for this hit? Is a low order 15" a lot like an 8"?

After Leach and Rowell ordered the hard turn to starboard because they were about to crash into Hood's wreck, then PoW went through 280T again, and again some time after that with the genuine turn away. During one of these came the Compass Platform hit. Also perhaps from PG, as the damage is so slight. Woods has time in the armoured Conning Tower to phone his friend after Hood blows up, and then proceed up two decks in time to be blown up by the CP hit.

So you are right, facts conspire to confuse

No, if you ditch the pre-conceptions imposed by the timeline, and consider the evidence only, it all fits beautifully

All the best

wadinga

[paulcadogan]

however it is even more difficult to dispute the damage report angle of the shell as it was calculated based on real measurements

Hi Alberto,

But as Duncan said, I think you CAN question this. The shell ricocheted off the charthouse roof. It is therefore quite possible for it to have come in from a bearing a bit more on the bow than is shown on the diagram, maybe moreso if the ship was heeling in a turn (as I believe she may have been! ). There are so many unknown factors involved in such an occurrence for them to be so precise in deciding on the incoming angle. Maybe Bill Jurens can comment on this?

And another factor here - for how many years have we, in this forum, been reading over McMullen's report WITHOUT picking up the significance to the timeline of the info on the 5.25's in relation to the HACS hit and the later crane-funnel hit, and that of the "heavy hit" felt in the transmitting station at salvo 12 that set the pointers oscillating violently? The answer is - several years! The fact is we were not scrutinizing it with regard to the timing of these events and just assumed they were in tandem with the other reports. I believe the same applied to Captain Leach - he probably read the report once, then used what info he deemed important to write his narrative. There was no need at the time to meticulously cross-reference everything. Over and done...he moved on, his duty was done.

Paul

[tommy303]

Tarrant says the detonation was of a low order for a 15". Alberto do you also have the dockyard report for this hit? Is a low order 15" a lot like an 8"?

The shell might have been a low order detonation of a 38cm shell, but perhaps not. Tarrant might have been comparing the results with a comparable British 15-in APC, which would have had an appreciably larger Shellite bursting charge than a 38cm APC's TNT burster. Certainly the amount of damage caused by the shell burst seems to indicate it was a high order detonation and it was considerably more destructive to equipment and structures on and below the shelter deck than damage caused by the two 20,3cm base fuzed HE shells which hit aft. The 38cm APC had a fairly small bursting charge and a considerable mass of steel from the shell body which, even with high order detonations, tended to break up into fairly large pieces, particularly the forward part of the shell ahead of the bursting charge; the desensitized TNT was also somewhat less powerful than Shellite (60% trinitrophenol and 40% dinitrophenol), and would produced slightly different effects at detonation, bearing in mind that the percentage of explosive was smaller. It is true that sometimes German AP and particularly base fuzed HE shells could produce lower order detonations, largely due to the very small gaines the Germans used which did not always produce the necessary shock wave to thoroughly initiate the TNT filler (German gaines used lead azide as the primary igniter, PETN in the exploder unit, and picric acid as the main booster charge while British gaines used lead azide, tetryl in the exploder, and and a larger picric acid booster). As to the identity of the shell, I believe fragments were recovered and measurements of the radius of the curved portions indicated it was a 38cm.

[tommy303]

I believe a 70% picric acid and 30% dinitrophenol was actually the standard for RN AP shells.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Paul Cadogan wrote: "Hi Alberto, But as Duncan said, I think you CAN question this"

Hi Paul, sure we can question the damage report: everybody can make mistakes.
However, compared with all over evidence, including witnesses, I think (possibly because I am an engineer) that the report is the most reliable, because it's based on real measurements and technical considerations and it is not influenced by emotions of people highly involved in the facts, even if they were honestly reporting their impression on the events.
In addition the report was written without any need to embellish the story (as some witnesses unfortunately needed to do)......
Still I admit that there are contradicting evidences about the hit n.2.

Wadinga wrote: "Alberto do you also have the dockyard report for this hit?..................................No, if you ditch the pre-conceptions imposed by the timeline, and consider the evidence only, it all fits beautifully "

Hi Sean, no I haven't, will try to get and share.
Regarding pre-conceptions, Antonio timeline is still the best fir for everything I have seen so far. As I said several times, if someone has a better battle map (with battle times marked on it) and can post it, I'm ready to see whether it fits with everything.
In the absence of any credible alternative, I stay with it. E.g. the turn to port (from 280° to 260°) before Hood exploded cannot have been omitted by Leach and Rowell. Why Rowell should mention the Hood signal not executed and omit the fact PoW turned anyway ? Why should Leach omit it in his narrative ?

Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

How do we account for the 5.25in guns opening fire at ~0557:30 but firing only 3 salvos?

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Duncan:

Alberto Virtuani wrote: "Still I admit that there are contradicting evidences about the hit n.2. "

I was exactly referring to this when I admitted that there are contradicting evidences, however we don't know exactly when the 5,25" ceased fire, only an estimation, the gunnery report is very generic about the 5,25" compared with the details available for the 14" salvos.

Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

just to put the final word about the correct timing and sequence of this hit being received on board HMS PoW here the link to Esmond Knight narrative about it.

http://www.esmondknight.org.uk/hislife08.htm

Now everybody can read from a real witness narrative that the water came down to the bridge after the hit on the compass platform was received.

In fact Esmond Knight did not mention it before it and referred to the water around his body AFTER it was received, ... when he woke up shocked and blind.

Based on this we can realize that this hit was received immediately after the compass platform one on same salvo, ... as Capt Leach reported ... or some more time AFTER it and could have been a 203 mm or even a 150 mm one, ... just like the damage report initially stated, ... based on the analysis and the direction the hit came that did not match with the compass platform one, ... but some time AFTER it, just as Esmond Knight confirmed on his narrative.

Elementary ... just elementary ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

All

Antonio presents Esmond Knight's words as definite evidence of sequence, but all he actually says is there was a hit, and when he woke up, he was lying in some water.

Water from shell splashes, water from the damaged tank? No-one knows. Which hit injured him? If he was in the ADO position he was about equidistant from the Compass Platform and the HA DCT support. If the HA DCT hit came first and knocked him out, he wouldn't hear the CP hit which blew Woods up.

This particular web reference is Knight's words intercut with somebody else's writing, which includes the times garnered from somewhere or other and no more reliable than any others.

Leach's narrative records "a heavy hit" before the CP mayhem happened. A hit on the HA DCT fits the bill perfectly.

And we still have to consider the crane hit, which Coates said happened before Hood blew up

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

YES, there was a hit ... this one :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... htm#Knight

... I don't remember even hearing the explosion at all. I remember listening for it and thinking it would be a most tremendous explosion, but I do not remember it, because practically immediately after that we altered course and the shell which came through the Compass Platform was the one that knocked me out. I don't remember much more after that.

If you do not have a defined idea from were that water came from when Esmond Knight woke up, ... just go and read the PoW damage report about that bridge situation after the hit received on the forward secondary directors, ... or just avoid to comment with no real value add.

If you have a different sequence to submit to us about those hits and events, .... supported by evidences, ... bring it out in writing just as Paul at least had the courage to do with his theory, ... or just avoid to comment adding your " fantastical stuffs ".

No more fantasy theories and unsupported event sequences ... just stick to the facts and the evidence in support of them and provide your own event version.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hi Antonio

Useful reference:

Did you know if the after turrets "X" and "Y" fired at all during the action?

No, as far as I know, no because we were closing at such a fine angle it would be impossible for the after turrets to bear at such a fine angle.

So Esmond Knight says the A arcs haven't even opened yet when Hood blows up. Then he says PoW makes a turn just before the CP hit. What turn would that be, bearing in mind she has to be on 280T to be hit at all?

You still haven't accounted for the hit Leach recorded before the CP hit. Shells from same salvo arrive at the same time. Maybe he just made it up as part of his falsifications, .

All the best

wadinga