The one about the Crane Hit

[Alberto Virtuani]

Page 14 of PoW Official damage report ADM 267/111 :
The shell travelled about 30 ft from point of impact to point of burst.
Examination of shell fragments recovered indicated that partial detonation occurred and that the shell was a 15 inch calibre.
SUMMARY : 15 inch shell travelled 30 ft within ship.....

I'm ready to admit that I measured wrongly the distance : from the drawing I assumed the shell first hit the arm of the crane, instead it hit the platform at the top of the crane (not the rear part , Duncan, sorry).

Now, please, Sean, Duncan, if you are fair as well, admit you were wrong in your "theory" about a 8".

Bye, Alberto

P.S. all the other part of the damage report I posted are right: NO DEFLECTION in the direction of the shell as measured by the dockyard, the shell was just "slightly deflected upward".

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: "were all the PE reports greeted with satisfaction by the KM Command? Were those also "innocent errors" or were the PE officers entangled in Tovey's monstrous web of lies and deceit?"

The difference is that the "errors" of PG officer were seriously inspected by the Group West that pretended to have them corrected. The less innocent errors of the RN officers were covered by the Admiralty and became historical truth for 73 years......

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Alberto,

Calm down Dear.

That was Duncan not me

Glad we manged to get the Crane hit report......what about an original scan.......

All the best
wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

... it is hard to be a looser ... now try to do it with dignity at least ... not like Leach or Wake-Walker ...

Now you show me how you will be able to re-evaluate your incorrect position, given what you have invested on it so far.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Page 14 of PoW Official damage report ADM 267/111 :
The shell travelled about 30 ft from point of impact to point of burst.
Examination of shell fragments recovered indicated that partial detonation occurred and that the shell was a 15 inch calibre.
SUMMARY : 15 inch shell travelled 30 ft within ship.....

I'm ready to admit that I measured wrongly the distance : from the drawing I assumed the shell first hit the arm of the crane, instead it hit the platform at the top of the crane (not the rear part , Duncan, sorry).

Now, please, Sean, Duncan, if you are fair as well, admit you were wrong in your "theory" about a 8".

Bye, Alberto

P.S. all the other part of the damage report I posted are right: NO DEFLECTION in the direction of the shell as measured by the dockyard, the shell was just "slightly deflected upward".

It was never "my" theory that the crane was struck by an 20.3cm shell. I did assess the fuze delay and damage as possibly being from an 20.3cm hit in the absence of data to the contrary.

PoW course data:
http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... encIVb.gif

0600-0601 it shows PoW moving from 0280 to ~0290, with 0285 at ~0600:30. The official data, then, shows the crane hit as happening at ~0600:30 based upon PoW's course although I suspect that it happened sooner because it is very improbable that a shell that is slowed by ~900fps, and deflected upward at the same time as it is obviously tumbling, is not also given a lateral deflection as well.

In terms of hit timing:

1) 15cm or 20.cm hit on the forward HADT supports - ~0559:10-20 (as recorded by the AFCT)
2) 38cm hit in the crane ~30 secs after Hood detonates (-559-06:30)
3) CP hit ~30 seconds after the crane hit.

[dunmunro]

with dignity at least ... not like Leach or Wake-Walker ...

Antonio, it does you great discredit to slander officers, who cannot reply, with such accusations.

[dunmunro]

Wadinga wrote: "were all the PE reports greeted with satisfaction by the KM Command? Were those also "innocent errors" or were the PE officers entangled in Tovey's monstrous web of lies and deceit?"

The difference is that the "errors" of PG officer were seriously inspected by the Group West that pretended to have them corrected. The less innocent errors of the RN officers were covered by the Admiralty and became historical truth for 73 years......

Bye, Alberto

Yup, t'was moi...

However, the accuracy of the KM reports is not the issue...the issue is whether or not they were deliberate fabrications done by black hearted officers...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Dunmunro wrote: "It was never "my" theory that the crane was struck by an 20.3cm shell."

Sorry Duncan, it was exactly your theory all through this thread:

Dunmurro wrote: "So the fuze delay favours a based fuzed 20.3cm. The damage report states, IIRC, that the shell was actually deflected upward upon striking the crane which is another point in favour of a 20.3cm hit."

Wadinga wrote: "Alberto, Calm down Dear. That was Duncan not me "

I'm sorry Sean, it was you who open this thread with this theory:

Wadinga wrote: "Sounds a lot like another 8" HE from PG doesn't it? And Coates on the after funnel said it happened before Hood blew up. "

Duncan, Sean, I understand the difficulty to admit that 3 RN officers were wrong when in action (it was difficult for me as well), but is it so difficult for you to admit you were wrong as well ?

Ciao
Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

OK, ... I see that things are getting " Cleared Up " now after I posted the Hit Nr 3 details from PoW damage report page 14.

As a " small gift " for everybody now ...

PoW_hit_3_page_14_01.jpg (50.62 KiB) Viewed 3786 times

I am not used to look backwards, ... and I do not like to keep a " bitter attitude " with friends, ... so for me the case is CLOSED !
It is time now to wrap this up and move forward.

I think we all agree now that we can considered definitively closed and incorrect the " 05.58 Hood explosion + PoW turn from 280 to 260 before Hood explosion + 8 inch crane hit + HACS directors out of action before the Hood explosion " theory with all the associated deductions released so far.

I saw and recognize Dunmunro new timing sequence which based on what I wrote above is already re-aligning all his proposed timings respectful of Hood correct explosion time at 06.00 more or less and PoW being taken under Bismarck main guns fire after a reasonable time ( at least 30 seconds ).

Confident that Wadinga/Sean will do the same soon and will be back to the correct timing limits of all this battle events sequence, so :

1 ) 06.00 and around 5/10 seconds for Hood explosion showed on the photo Nh 69724

and

2 ) 06.03 and 25 seconds for PoW Y turret local control 19th salvo landing short, showed on photo Nh 69731

What remain to be done more accurately is to define inside those 200 seconds the exact event sequence as best as we can based on the available evidences.

Duncan wrote a very wise statement I agree with :

... the issue is whether or not they were deliberate fabrications done by black hearted officers ...

I have here to admit that it was NOT easy for me to accept this fact, ... since I admire Royal Navy traditions ( not like Alberto that is unbeatable about it with his passion about RN ) and I grew up with John Jervis and Horatio Nelson traditions too, ... so believe it or not, it was difficult to accept all this for me, ... but still once is demonstrated there is nothing you can do about it.

It is a very delicate situation now, ... but for sure a very different way to read those events needs to be written, ... from the historical stand point, ... and with military evaluations ONLY ( nothing personal or course ).

Holland was made a scapegoat about all happened and it was NOT correct, ... those Officers have been ALL rewarded with medals and it was NOT correct either.

When my new article will be released than a better evaluation will be possible about these whole scenarios.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Antonio - you know that the confusion that occurred on the German side of this action was not evidence of conspiracy or wrong doing, yet the same confusion on the RN side you attribute to criminal wrongdoing... That's just plain silly

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I have never used the word " criminal " simply because I do not think they considered in that way what they were doing.
It has been just a matter on that being considered in between necessary or convenient for everybody due to the war going on.

You have to consider that from a certain point onward, the Officers themselves were not going to be able to do that successfully on their own, and that is the worst part of it if we look at it with today eyes.

They have been coordinated and helped on doing the cover up of all this, it is evident from the reports content itself, the modifications done, the documents " created " on purpose not controlled and accepted, the documents never showed since they were demonstrating that what was released was incorrect.

You asked before, and I was ready to explain you :

Antonio, were all the Prinz Eugen reports greeted with satisfaction by the KM Command ? Were those also "innocent errors" or were the Prinz Eugen officers entangled in Tovey's monstrous web of lies and deceit?

Prinz Eugen officers reports, like every for every Navy Officer in command position involved in action in war during WW2 in any Navy that I know, have been subject to close scrutiny by their superior once in harbor.
You can refer to Schmundt, Brinkmann, Reimann, Carls, Schniewind letters about the operation and the reports/maps and actions taken.

There is a main difference compared to what happened on Royal Navy Admiralty once PoW, Norfolk and Suffolk went home after Rheinubung.
Prinz Eugen did NOT retreat in front of the enemy, but engaged, opened fire and scored decisive hits.
There was nothing to be hidden on the German side, no Articles of War and nobody with the intention to put Brinkmann under a court martial after a careful scrutiny of his actions.

Some considerations were done by Schmundt about Prinz Eugen utilization against battleships and were explained by Carls and Schneiwind defending Brinkmann actions, since they were successful at the end and ordered directly by Adm Lutjens at sea; an easy and due task by Schmundt given the procedures in place for the cruisers.
The missing launch of torpedoes by Prinz Eugen were explained by an error in distance evaluation by the responsible Officer ( with a produced map by Reimann ) due to lack of a dedicate rangefinder. Solution was to install a dedicated 3 m rangefinder on all heavy units with torpedo tubes installed.

Much different on the Royal Navy side, were you had the newest battleship retreating while engaged in battle after less than 2 minutes, once alone ... ...
... than you had a Flag Officer loosing time to engage the enemy at first, ... and after Hood explosion retreating even before PoW did, ... ... and NOT opening fire in support of PoW under concentrated enemy fire, even if in condition to do it given his distance from the enemy ... ... than you had another heavy cruiser making a turn north delaying his engagement at first, soon after the “ Enemy in Sight ! “ radio message by PoW ...

Prinz Eugen Officers had the usual careful scrutiny, nothing more, nothing less ... the Royal Navy Officers instead of a well deserved inquiry given the above reasons ... got ALL rewarded with a medal for it ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Antonio,

Thank you for showing the evidence about the crane hit. Only by such verification can the truth be determined.

The defence of these officers' reputation continues.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: "The defence of these officers' reputation continues. "

Hi Sean, this position is very worthy of respect on your part !

They do need a VERY GOOD defence.....

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hi Alberto,

GOOD defence, you boys have just made it to number 1700 Maxim Gorky Street...............STALINGRAD!

Next is number 1698 Maxim Gorky Street! Good Luck!

Is is indeed important that the crane hit was identified as 15" but that identification does not render Coates' evidence imaginary.

Looking at the excellent model pictures it is astonishing that Coates was affected by the crane hit when the explosion happened aft of the funnel, and he was a deck below the boat deck. In fact looking at the splinter damage to the funnel concentrated in a very small area ie close to explosion, is it not amazing the Walrus was perforated by this hit at all?

In fact is it not more likely that the Walrus, perched on the port end of the catapult is directly in the path of debris from the HA/DCT hit? To me it seems likely that Coates has confused this 8" HA/DCT hit, with the crane hit which happened somewhere behind him, as the shelter of the funnel and him being a deck lower protected him from it.

His account of being knocked down, then seeing the burning Hood disappear when PoW's superstructure gets in the way fits very well with Paul's scenario, if it was the PG's 8" that knocked him down.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: "Looking at the excellent model pictures it is astonishing that Coates was affected by the crane hit when the explosion happened aft of the funnel, and he was a deck below the boat deck."......."In fact is it not more likely that the Walrus, perched on the port end of the catapult is directly in the path of debris from the HA/DCT hit?"

Hi Sean, I suspect that the catapult control platform is in front of the funnel but NOT below the boat deck. It is at almost the same level of the boat deck, overlooking the catapult deck: this is what I see in my plan related to the boat deck (please see below):

catapult_control_platform.jpg (49.78 KiB) Viewed 3657 times

I could not find any control platform at the catapult deck level. That's also why it's so difficult to determine the angle of view for the Hood, as at boat deck level too many structures are just borderline with the angle of view of the flagship, including a secondary armament turret

Regarding the Walrus, this is a bit strange indeed: I suspect the Walrus was damaged by splinters coming from the crane top, not from the shell explosion itself as this would be very difficult. However no other hit was reaching the catapult area. The same "splinters" could have disturbed the catapult control platform area as well.

Bye, Alberto