Hello everybody,
Steve Crandell wrote :
In this case, there are many versions of the events in question, but no one is saying "so and so lied to cover his ass". It is also contrary to the tradition of British officers in combat.
You hit the nail in the head now Steve. What happened was contrary to the Royal Navy tradition of British Officer in combat, and that is the reason why they had to change wordings and data in order to move from a deserved inquiry call, into a proposal for medal recognition that at the end have been delivered to those Officers on October 1941.
You need an evidence about it ? Just look at “ The Plot “ and what has been done to modify RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker declarations at the first board of inquiry. Similar things has been done to save and after decorate Capt. J.C. Leach and also Capt. Ellis.
Wadinga/Sean did not like that to be written, he said it was not true, stating several times that there was no inquiry/court martial call about those Officers, … he even tried to declare that Adm Tovey was suffering for dementia when he stated that to McMullen, … until I showed him a clear declaration of Capt: J.C. Leach son , Sir Henry Leach, one time First Sea Lord of Royal Navy, … declaring that in writings into Tarrant KGV book.
Now, like on many other cases, Wadinga/Sean do not talk about it anymore, … like for the incorrect 06.13 time declared for PoW retreat, …and for the incorrect 15 sea miles of Norfolk distance during the battle, … in those examples I was correct of course, ... but challenged to the very end of it, just like in this case, in order not to admit the shameful situation clearly under our eyes.
Dunmunro wrote :
Is there a single witness to this action that is 100% reliable? Leach was handicapped by being knocked down and through the loss or damage of most of the detailed notes taken on the bridge. I believe Leach's account is truthful but not necessarily 100% accurate.
Surely there were much more reliable witnesses taking notes and time on board PoW during that battle. The documents damaged by the hit on Compass Platform were almost nothing compared to what Capt. Leach could use still available and undamaged on PoW to produce both a correct radio message on May 27th, 1941 as well as a very detailed battle report on June 4th, 1941. The other PoW Officers are not subject of close scrutiny upfront by me since they had nothing to care about them going under a board of inquiry about this battle. They were honest British Officers in combat and in fact they produced and released correct reports we can use today to try to re-construct what really happened on board PoW. Somebody else delivered incorrect reports after to avoid the inquiry and support the decorations.
Wadinga wrote and asked :
Now you too have an official damage report, with diagrams as well, which "for sure....for sure....for sure" states that the crane hit was a 15" hit. Then please, please, please show me that quote from your version that says the splinters were measured as 15". Antonio has suggested that the version of ADM 267/11 on the Hood site is lacking information because those words he says are in the report, don't appear in the Hood site version at all.
Here it is for you Sean, but it is
NOT what you were dreaming for, just the opposite :
Page 14 of PoW Official damage report ADM 267/111 :
The shell travelled about 30 ft from point of impact to point of burst.
Examination of shell fragments recovered indicated that partial detonation occurred and that the shell was a 15 inch calibre.
SUMMARY : 15 inch shell travelled 30 ft within ship and than gave partial detonation. Met no serious obstructions.
Splinters travelled a maximum distance of about 57 ft and perforated 12 lbs + 5 lbs + 12 lbs + 7 lbs M.S.
Blast damage – negligible.
EFFECT ON FIGHTING EFFICIENCY : Type 285 R.D.F. office wrecked and crew disabled. After H.A. director temporarily out of action.
NOTE : They wrote After H.A. director without writing if it was port or starboard, just leaving here a “room for interpretation” like they did on the hit nr 2 leaving a possibility it was a 15 inch. This was very evidently done NOT to demonstrate that somebody else reports were SURELY incorrect. But this is another story … and refers to my above first point to Steve Crandell.
... still Wadinga commented :
Coates makes the effort to particularly inform the Enquiry Board that Hood had not yet exploded when the crane hit occurred. He specifically explains that he could not see Hood's explosion because the forward superstructure moved across his line of sight.
Scientific investigation records observations, evaluates them and then makes conclusions. I have presented a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on Coates observations, that is a port turn by PoW before Hood's explosion, and I request again anyone to supply a suggestion for how else what Coates described could occur.
Congratulations Sean !
Now you have created your own “ theory “ where you want to sustain that a 380 mm hit was received on board PoW before Hood exploded.
You seem confused to me exactly like was Coates when describing the timing of Hood explosion he admitted he did not see.
and you added after :
Steve, thanks for your offer of good luck. There is indeed little chance of the progenitors re-evaluating their position, they have invested too much in conspiracy theory based on the flimsiest of evidence, and now refuse to discuss contradicting evidence, for instance Coates' account. However others may still have ears open to argument, and will not be impressed by repeated assertions that "Milestones have been established and there is nothing left to talk about".
You need now much more that some sort of good luck to explain how it can be.
Your interpretation of Coates account is clearly incorrect and your " theory " with it.
Milestones are established based on the facts and the evidences I have supporting all I have carefully researched so far about this battle with a
no side taken approach.
Unfortunately you have nothing coming even close to them supporting your “ fantastical stuffs “, just using your own definition of a theory with no fundaments, and
your side taken approach in defense of what cannot be defended anymore as determined your evident evaluation error.
On last post still Wadinga :
Thus we shall have to rely for the time being on available sources to knock down this monstrous ziggurat based on Rowell's hastily prepared track plans, the timing entry of Hunter-Terry's un-named friend and a difference of opinion by a few minutes as to what actually constitutes the "end" of an engagement.
As you wrote above, and I clearly understood since time, you wanted to demonstrate that PoW was turning toward Hood before Hood exploded associating to this event an 8 inch shell on the crane to support your interpretation of Coates, bringing back the Hood explosion time to 05.58 maybe, and try to tell me after that Hunter-Terry timings and declarations were incorrect and needed to be re-evaluated.
You wanted to associate in sequence : PoW turn to port -> Coates -> hit 3 on the crane being 8 inch - > Hunter-Terry description of turn to port associated to the Crane hit - > based on the 8 inch calibre than Hunter-Terry time ( after 06.01 ) is wrong and your interpretation of Coates is right, so all occurred while turning before Hood exploded, that means Rowell was wrong ( he wrote : NO turn ! ) and the turn from 280 to 260 occurred according to you at 05.58 and before Hood exploded, since the hit 3 on the crane was from Prinz Eugen.
Sorry Sean, you are facing an evident and miserable failure.
Now you are on same situation of Winklareth ( BS Reverse Photo ) and Vic Dale ( Crazy Ivan ) with your invented and impossible situation.
You know already, since you wrote it above were you can publish it now.
Now you show me how you will be able to re-evaluate your incorrect position, given what you have invested on it so far.
Alberto wrote :
NOTHING will convince people that don't want to be convinced ...
You are right my friend, … it reminds me of the old “ Crazy Ivan “ times … and the “ Reverse Photo “ theories, … but I have no more time nor intention to waste too much efforts on this useless discussion anymore …
Summarizing :
The turn to port by PoW from 280 to 260 before Hood exploded was never executed ( Rowell ) … the Hood exploded at 06.00 ( many witnesses both sides ), … the Compass Platform hit was probably the first one ( Esmond Knight ) … the crane hit was a 15 inch and was received very likely after it while already turning to port retreating ( Hunter-Terry ) … surely the hit on the forward HACS directors was received after those 2 by 380 mm hits ( PoW damage report and Esmond Knight ) while PoW had already done/completed around initial 20 degrees turn to port, going from 280 to 260 degrees. Those were the first 20 degrees of the 160 degrees turn to port ordered to retreat/disengage from the battle at 06.01 and 30 seconds according to Rowell, ... Hood bow was sinking at around 06.03 battle time.
Capt Leach and RearAdm Wake-Walker were of course NOT the " best " witnesses to rely on, ... given the situation, .... the potential inquiry and court martial and their DIRECT involvement on everything.
Adm Tovey to write his dispatches used Capt Leach and RearAdm Wake-Walker inputs ...
... with ALL the related " innocent errors " on them, ... and we know how it went : 06.13 and 15 sea miles distance ... for the last 73 years.
To " save " Wake-Walker from his previous declarations driving him directly to the court martial, a second board was called and " The Plot " invented ... with enormous errors on it ... while they had several perfect tracks and maps available.
Wake-Walker " saved " Capt Leach writing for the first time 06.13 for PoW retreat on his report to Adm Tovey.
You can call it as you like ... it has been an evident
COVER UP !
Hope this is the last “ fantasy theory “ I have to demonstrate being incorrect.
I understand the " hooligans " side taken approach in defense of a flag .... but I am sick and tired about all this waste of time.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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which "for sure....for sure....for sure" states that the crane hit was a 15" hit. Then please, please, please show me that quote from your version that says the splinters were 
then the chances of anything contradicting the Grand Conspiracy theory seeing the light of day from these Crown Copyright public access resources is pretty small. Until it surfaces via another route 