Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

Hello all,

I had mentioned this at some point in another thread, but now, having given it much more thought, I feel I need to elaborate on it and hopefully generate more food for thought for all of you.

The Fleet Commander, Adm. Lütjens was known for his adherence to his operational orders. Yet in the DS battle he was thought to have slipped up with regards to Prinz Eugen and her role as a heavy cruiser facing attack by capital ships.

Vice-Admiral Schmundt in his comments on the conduct of Prinz Eugen said the following:
4. Conduct of Prinz Eugen during the battle.

a. Although the conduct of "Prinz Eugen" during the battle against 2 heavy enemy ships is indeed very courageous, it does not meet the common [tactical] views presently in force, according to which, already during the assembly for battle, the cruisers and torpedo boats are to post themselves in the fire-lee of the main body – here undoubtedly "Bismarck".

Although the cruiser had an armament of 20cm guns, with which the artillery officer fired remarkably well and also achieved damaging the opponent, this ship is so poorly armored that it belongs to the light units despite its designation as "heavy cruiser". Every 35 cm or 38 cm hit would have made this ship probably a prize of the pursuing English units or would have forced "Bismarck" to assume extremely unwanted responsibilities for protecting the heavily damaged ship.

In fact, the ship fired a closed salvo, which according to the commander would have hit without fail, but the ship had to maneuver coincidentally to avoid a torpedo from "Hood". Although the ship did not receive an order from the chief of fleet to position itself into the lee side of fire [of "Bismarck"], he should have and must have done this on his own, according to the valid tactical procedures in force, by reporting his intention to the chief of fleet, since at this stage there was no battle and the cruiser had not been fully engaged.

I do not know the thought processes of the chief of fleet here either for holding the cruiser in the line of battle, not only to engage "Hood" but also against the "Prince of Wales".

b. The cruiser did not receive a signal for fire division – indeed no battle signals were given at all – although this is unusual, it can be explained that the Chief of Fleet either considered the placing of the cruiser into the fire lee as self-evident and did not feel a fire division signal was not required or that the situation was so clear that a fire division signal was superfluous.

But I do agree also with the commander that a directive could be expected by him, particularly, since this is customarily always done when sailing in the line of battle.
However, the preliminary report on the debriefing of Bismarck survivors indicates that three targets – Hood, PoW and a heavy cruiser (Norfolk) were in sight to port at the start of the battle.

No targeting orders were issued by the Fleet Commander prior to the permission to fire order at 0555 and, as a result, both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen engaged Hood. For two minutes prior to that, Prinz Eugen had been under fire from Hood with 15-inch shells falling close enough to flood her decks with water from collapsing splashes.

Based on “The Plot” and other official documents, we know as well that at 0555 Norfolk made a turn towards the German squadron and started to close rapidly. Although the Baron gave no indication of reporting this move in his book, it doesn’t mean that it was unnoticed on Bismarck.

We also know that shortly after hitting Hood with her second salvo, Prinz Eugen received a semaphore signal from the Fleet Commander to fire “auf den Gegner am weitesten links” which Google translates as “on the opponent leftmost” which Ulrich has translated as “engage opponent farthest to the left”.

“Leftmost” means “furthest to the left” according to the Oxford dictionary.

“Furthest” indicates more than one object or location is being considered with the one most distant being the choice.

From previous discussions, it was determined that Bismarck increased speed and closed with the Prinz during the battle. We know also that Bismarck engaged Hood with her full main armament, while her secondary armament, once in range, fired at PoW (so PoW was not left completely un-engaged).

Now…COULD IT BE…that Lütjen’s INTENTION, in keeping with battle policy and expecting an on-going engagement, was that Prinz Eugen fall back and take on her opposite number Norfolk, which had at the time altered towards the German squadron, which could be interpreted as a prelude to attacking?? That would have taken her out of the enemy capital ships’ line of fire, and allowed her to face an enemy of her ship class. Even if Suffolk was able to catch up and join in, it was still 1 vs. 2 of the same classification for both German ships.

Could it be, therefore, that Captain Brinkmann misinterpreted Lütjens order in simply ordering Jasper to switch to the immediate left opponent (PoW) rather than the furthest left opponent (Norfolk).

The destruction of Hood and the rapid withdrawal of PoW, together the Norfolk’s altering away then made Brinkmann’s misinterpretation a moot point and there was no further exchange on the matter.

PLUS…in the aftermath, when the criticism was leveled by Schmundt, it was NOT in Brinkmann’s (or anyone on PG’s) interest to point out the interpretive error (if they in fact realized it), leaving the blame squarely on Lütjens who was dead and could not explain himself. Schmundt's statement that "no battle signals were given at all" suggests he may have overlooked the semaphore signal and even the permission to fire signal.

If this is all valid, then once again (like in the already countered “failure to give permission to fire” argument) it shows that Lütjens was in control and knew exactly what he was doing!

As usual, I’m just sharing my thoughts…. Looking forward to yours - especially those who speak German, since the interpretation of “auf den Gegner am weitesten links” is key...
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
User avatar
frontkampfer
Member
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 2:35 am
Location: Phillipsburg, NJ - USA

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by frontkampfer »

It looks like to me that PE switching fire to PoW was the right move even if orders were not interpreted correctly nor SOP was not followed taking position on BS lee. If Lutjen's did or didn't order it maybe it just made sense the way it played out given the positions as the battle opened as strange as it may sound. Just my 2 pfennig.
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

I completely agree - especially with the way things turned out. As I said, within a few minutes Hood was destroyed and PoW was in full retreat. Bismarck swept past the Prinz putting her in the lee at the very end of the battle (facilitated somewhat by the torpedo alarm maneuvers). There was no need for PG to do anything more - the opponents had been defeated.

I suspect that had Hood not sunk and the battle continued well past 0600, Norfolk would have eventually opened fire and Prinz Eugen would have fallen behind Bismarck to engage her.
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Steve Crandell »

I don't see how Norfolk could have charged into the battle in any case. Bismarck and PE were going almost as fast as Norfolk, and the latter might have been able to close at one to two km per HOUR on the German ships. Both British cruisers were left back in Bismarck's wake and hopelessly out of the fight.

PE served as a target for Hood, and may have saved Bismarck some serious damage in doing so.
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

Steve Crandell wrote:I don't see how Norfolk could have charged into the battle in any case. Bismarck and PE were going almost as fast as Norfolk, and the latter might have been able to close at one to two km per HOUR on the German ships. Both British cruisers were left back in Bismarck's wake and hopelessly out of the fight.
Well Steve, that certainly applied to Suffolk. But whether you consider her to have been 12 miles or 15 miles from Bismarck at 0555, Norfolk was certainly not in Bismarck's wake - more somewhat aft of her port beam. When she turned to 270 degrees to try and close the range wouldn't you interpret that as an aggressive move if you were aboard Bismarck at 0555?
Steve Crandell wrote:PE served as a target for Hood, and may have saved Bismarck some serious damage in doing so.
That may be true, but again that is a hindsight determination. At 0555 PG was under pretty accurate fire. I really doubt that Lutjens decided to let her take the role of a sacrificial lamb to protect Bismarck - especially knowing his record of adherence to operational orders. The fact is that those operational policies dictated that she get out of there - and the presence of Norfolk, turning towards on the port quarter, at whatever range you consider correct, might be considered a further reason for her to change her position... :think:
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Paul Cadogan wrote: "......Now…COULD IT BE…that Lütjen’s INTENTION, in keeping with battle policy and expecting an on-going engagement, was that Prinz Eugen fall back and take on her opposite number Norfolk, which had at the time altered towards the German squadron, which could be interpreted as a prelude to attacking ? ....."
Very interesting theory, Paul ! :clap:

I'm not sure that Lutjens had already in mind to switch PG fire to Norfolk when he issued the semaphore order, but I'm curious to see the German speaking friend's translation (and interpretation) of the message.

Without entering here again into the never-ending discussion about Norfolk distance from BS at 6:00 (11 sm according to first board of inquiry, 12 sm sailing from the position in the "diamond of death", or 13 sm according to her own GO and her own plot) :wink: , I have been always convinced that Lutjens (as well as Holland) was expecting a long enough engagement to have the British heavy cruisers fully engaged, and his decision to order PG to keep her speed (27 knots) and to ask BS to accelerate to 30 knots is exactly in line with this expectation, as you correctly say.

However, PG fired several salvoes to PoW, without receiving from Lutjens any different order, thus I would tend to say that Lutjens was at least satisfied of Brinkmann's target selection (that after Hood explosion concentrated the fire on the only remaining battleship....).

My 2 cents opinion here is that Lutjens did intend to boldly use PG as a fighting unit against the battleships first, while positioning her to take care of the cruisers at a later stage only, if needed. In addition, Lutjens orders were to avoid engagements against warships and Norfolk was not engaging him.... Therefore, strictly, he should have avoided to "provoke" another British warship.....


Paul Cadogan wrote "....If this is all valid, then once again (like in the already countered “failure to give permission to fire” argument) it shows that Lütjens was in control and knew exactly what he was doing!....."
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Without crying to another conspiracy :wink: ....... I think Lutjens was unduly (but somehow logically in war time) charged of some errors to partially justify the loss of Bismarck, in the same way Holland was for the loss of Hood.....

IMHO he was outstanding on May 24, (even more if the switch target is to be intended against PoW and not against Norfolk), employing all means to achieve his objective, starting from a losing position and disregarding "fighting instructions" that only apply in an ideal situation.

History too often leads to the conclusion: "Vae Victis" ("Woe to the vanquished")

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Dave Saxton »

I probably need to re-read the PG documents, but as I recall Jasper thought, and told his commanding officer, that Hood and POW were cruisers until after combat was joined. It was also Jasper who selected the POW as the target when the fire was shifted. The max field of view through the firecontrol optics and the radars was about 5*
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Steve Crandell »

The British cruisers were unlikely to seriously damage Bismarck. The could seriously damage and slow PG, however. The mission was to break out into the Atlantic shipping routes. Why run a risk of slowing damage to PG if there was still hope of getting away?
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Dave Saxton »

^^ I agree. Luetjens later placed much emphasis on PG continuing the mission and sheparding PG into the Atlantic and making a clean break away.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Dave Saxton »

The Baron in his book alluded to conversations he had with Paul Ascher were Ascher complained about having to switch fire from target to target at River Plate, and how it was better to keep as much fire as possible on a target until it was destroyed or incapacitated. Ascher was the gunnery adviser on Luetjen's staff. Did Ascher have a hand in the concentration of as many German guns on the POW as was possible?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for all the replies guys!
Steve Crandell wrote:Why run a risk of slowing damage to PG if there was still hope of getting away?
:shock: PG had 15-inch shells screaming down on her- and coming close! I'd say the risk from even one hit was much bigger than her facing 8-inchers which she was designed for. If she had to fight at all, better she face her opposite number as in the situation they were in, there was no immediate escape from the fight.

As things turned out, Brinkmann made the right decision, no doubt about it, but the question still remains - why was the word "weitesten" which translates to "most" (Google) used in the signal when "auf den Gegner am links" ("at the enemy on the left") would have sufficed for targeting PoW?

Weit = far
weisteste = furthest
weitesten = most

German speakers please help..... :?: Herr Nillson?
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:My 2 cents opinion here is that Lutjens did intend to boldly use PG as a fighting unit against the battleships first, while positioning her to take care of the cruisers at a later stage only, if needed. In addition, Lutjens orders were to avoid engagements against warships and Norfolk was not engaging him.... Therefore, strictly, he should have avoided to "provoke" another British warship.....
Alberto, once again I think you're using hindsight. Positioning her to "take care" of the cruisers at a later stage if needed?? Wow! That's extreme confidence that PG would single-handedly scupper 2 British heavy cruisers! Knowing the efficiency of PG's gunnery it was possible - but how could anyone have been sure of that before Hood blew up?

At 0555 (no hindsight) how could Lutjens be sure PG wouldn't be blown out of the water by Hood in a couple minutes, forcing Bismarck to go careening around her sinking wreck under fire (and taking hits) from 2 British capital ships to reverse course under a smoke screen and then have to blast her way past a startled Suffolk to try to escape? This was what V-Adm Schmundt was talking about.

Had the trajectory of these two shells been somewhat lower, that could very well have happened!

Image

Those two words still remain....weitesten links...... :think: :D
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1585
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Orders regarding the distribution of fire are related to battle lines. The cruisers were not part of the british battle line.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Paul Cadogan wrote: "At 0555 (no hindsight) how could Lutjens be sure PG wouldn't be blown out of the water by Hood in a couple minutes, forcing Bismarck to go careening around her sinking wreck under fire (and taking hits) from 2 British capital ships to reverse course under a smoke screen and then have to blast her way past a startled Suffolk to try to escape? This was what V-Adm Schmundt was talking about."
Hi Paul,
you are right, PG could have been blown up or at least crippled by a single hit: to blow up an heavy cruiser is not such an easy task, as demonstrated by Zara and Fiume at Matapan, when they did receive full 15" broadsides from point blank and they did not blow up at all, Zara (that received 13 salvos in less than 3 minutes from 3 different battleships at a distance from 3500 to 2600 meters) was still afloat and should be finished by a torpedo some 20 minutes after. At the end Fiume sank after 1 hour and Zara after 4 hours afloat at 2:40 in the night scuttled by her crew :shock: .
Same with Exeter at River Plate when she received several 11" hits and did not blow up.

However for Lutjens, at 5:55, the immediate danger was ahead and it was BC1 squadron firing at him, so I think he correctly employed everything he had at hands to open his way to south, starting in the meantime to deploy PG to take care of the cruisers, would she had survived the clash with the battleships.

It was a bold and good decision (I admit, with hindsight) but I think (my personal opinion) that Lutjens was ready in his mind to sacrifice PG in order to save the much more precious BS for her mission in Atlantic. He correctly evaluated his priorities and took a risk in order to achieve his primary objective. :clap:
He kept PG ahead firing to PoW even after Hood was sunk (in theory at that point BS could deal with PoW alone) and did not correct PG target, because his priority was to escape with an undamaged BS (that was not the case anyway, with hindsight..... :cool: ).

That's perhaps why Brinkmann was not feeling very comfortable during the engagement and at a certain point "heard" and even "saw" the torpedoes at water...... :think:

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
paulcadogan
Senior Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Lutjens' target directive to Prinz Eugen

Post by paulcadogan »

Herr Nilsson wrote:Orders regarding the distribution of fire are related to battle lines. The cruisers were not part of the british battle line.
So an enemy warship that has turned towards you during a battle, whether in range or not, is left alone and allowed to close in because it's not part of the battle line you are engaged with? :think:

So the word "weitesten" in the semaphore signal was not significant Marc? I ask very honestly because I have no knowledge of German language usage other than what I get from the online translator so I ask your guidance.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:as demonstrated by Zara and Fiume at Matapan, when they did receive full 15" broadsides from point blank and they did not blow up at all, Zara (that received 13 salvos in less than 3 minutes from 3 different battleships at a distance from 3500 to 2600 meters) was still afloat and should be finished by a torpedo some 20 minutes after. At the end Fiume sank after 1 hour and Zara after 4 hours afloat at 2:40 in the night scuttled by her crew .
The key here is 3500 m or less - flat trajectories = topside hits, very poor chance of magazine ignition or severe underwater damage!

Anyway, the thing is....all we can do is try to interpret and speculate. We can never know for sure what was in the Fleet Commander's mind.... All we know is the battle went well for him, with the exception of PoW's mission-disrupting hits.
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Post Reply