The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

RF wrote: "Had Bismarck reached Brest then there would have been far more recrimination, though in my opinion a court martial would not have been merited......a case could now be argued that Bismarck reaching Brest would actually have been worse for the Germans.....with the Russians as the main beneficiaries.However at the time it would certainly not have been seen that way."
Hi RF,
your considerations re. Bismarck needed protection (at Brest) are correct.

However, had Bismarck not only reached Brest but also had she sunk a convoy (or worse, the WS8B), then I would guess that the British reactions would have been very different and much heavier that "recriminations" only.

Of course the German declaration of war to USSR changed the strategical situation in the long term.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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RF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by RF »

In making my comment I was assuming simply that the fatal hit on Bismarck's rudder did not happen. The DS battle would be as it was, leaving Bismarck unable to pursue the commerce war in the Atlantic.
The intended meaning here is that Hood was sunk, Bismarck took battle damage and scurried back to port. Specifically the only recrimination would be the Bismarck escape and the issue of POW disengaging coupled with Norfolk not going at full speed and opening fire.

Now if we have Bismarck successfully attacking a convoy (with Prinz Eugen) then the dynamics of the DS battle must change such that Bismarck receives no battle damage. Without changing the lead up to that battle the only way I can see Bismarck remaining unscathed is for POW to follow Hood's order of fire on left hand ship to the letter, only switching fire when Holland issued his correcting order. This would leave POW with insufficient time to range on Bismarck before being exposed to serious fire.
That realistically could have happened, but then Bismarck would still have to shake off Wake-Walker. In an undamaged state Lutjens would have a far better chance of doing so.
Then there is the convoy attack itself. Any convoy would have escorts and with Prinz Eugen in company my thinking is that Lutjens would prove to be almost as reticent as he was with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. It wouldn't be a quick action, either if the convoy scattered or kept in close company by the escorts. Scheer's attack on a convoy resulted in the great majority of the merchant ships
escaping because Krancke played safe with his tactics. I would expect Lutjens and Lindemann to do the same, so the escorts will have time to attack. Again any damage to either German ship could be fatal, and while Bismarck could escape there are so many potential factors here that any recrimination may be focussed on different targets. This really does come into the realms of conjecture.
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Gentlemen,

Interesting as these strategical extrapolations may be: eg how much more guilty people would be if something different happened after their actions, as opposed to what actually happened, can we revert to the thread subject? Is there any evidence to back up Tovey's assertion in 1961 that there was a move by Pound to court martial Leach and/or Wake-Walker?

According to Robin Brodhill's book "Churchill's Anchor" WSC was at the PM's country home, Chequers, from Saturday 24th May through to 12:30 Monday the 26th, leaving for London at 12:30. Considering he was at the Cabinet meeting referenced above at 17:00 there was not much time for him to be directly interfering at the Admiralty about the Bismarck. At the meeting Pound delivered the interim report mentioned above, with its ambivalent observation about Leach's action. The main naval event was Crete. In the previous week Carlisle, Ajax, Naiad, Warspite and Valiant have all been damaged and Juno, Gloucester, Fiji, Kashmir and Kelly have been sunk.

But Churchill could interfere by phone, and obviously did so on the 24th. Hence the "Re-engagement signal." However, later the same day Pound sends
19:16 24th May Admiralty to Norfolk, Suffolk "Shadowing by Norfolk has been admirable. Keep it up and good luck"
This signal alone would be sufficient to scupper any moves for Court Martial. Defending counsel would have a field day.

Brodhill quotes Colville, WSC's secretary "The PM cannot understand why the PoW did not press home her attack yesterday and keeps saying it is the worst thing since Troubridge turned away from the Goeben in 1914. He rates the First Lord and the First Sea lord continuously." Yesterday means this was happening on Sunday 25th.

Despite the battering his fleet was taking Cunningham was told at 21:32 25th that "greater efforts were needed and greater risks must be accepted". The Chiefs of Staff also went over his head and ordered the transport Glenroy to turn north again after he had ordered her south.

On the 26th May Formidable and Nubian are badly damaged.

On the 27th to spoil somewhat the elation over the Bismarck's demise, Barham is damaged. Tovey receives the signal telling him he must remain to destroy Bismarck even if he runs out of fuel and has to be towed. Similar stupid WSC-inspired messages have been sent previously to W-W and Edinburgh. Evacuation of Crete commences.

On the 28th Ajax is further damaged and Imperial sunk.

On the 29th Hereward is sunk and Decoy, Dido and Orion damaged.

On the 30th May Perth and Kelvin are damaged.

On the 31st May Napier is damaged.

On the 1st of June Calcutta is sunk . Crete is evacuated and subsequently Cunningham offers to give up his command. Roskill "Churchill and the Admirals" says "an offer which was not accepted, despite the strained relations which had developed at the height of the battle."

Does the First Sea Lord really have nothing better to do at this time than pursue a witch hunt against two officers? Or was it a vague idea matching previous behaviour:
Secondly, because there had been a number of incidents recently and this would set an example for others. Thirdly, because someone in the Admiralty would always hold it against Norris if he were not thoroughly cleared. “
never shared with anyone except in an unrecorded conversation with Tovey, remembered and exaggerated in importance only in later life? A vague idea, abandoned in an instant over Tovey's reaction?

All the best

wadinga
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Interestingly I discover that Brodhurst's quote was a bit of judicious editing:
"The PM cannot understand why the PoW did not press home her attack yesterday and keeps saying it is the worst thing since Troubridge turned away from the Goeben in 1914. He rates the First Lord and the First Sea lord continuously."
I suspected there was something wrong to "rate" somebody does not mean berate somebody.

What WSC's secretary actually wrote in his book ( found in Martin Gilbert's book Finest Hour, was:

""He berated the First Lord and First sea Lord continuously, both on this account and because in the Mediterranean, the navy shows, he thinks a tendency to shirk its task of preventing a seaborne landing in Crete since Cunningham fears severe losses from bombing. The PM's line is that Cunningham must be made to take very risk: the loss of half the Mediterranean Fleet would be worthwhile in order to save Crete."

To make clear- WSC was much more concerned about what he considered shortcomings in Admiral Cunningham's actions, than those of Leach and Wake-Walker. Not to change subject but the seaborne threat was irrelevant. German troops came unhindered, by air, because there was no RAF on the island to stop them. ABC did end up with more than half the fleet out of action and Crete still fell.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

a very interesting comparison of what you have found with Bercuson & Herwig statement on their book :

https://books.google.it/books?id=LIaDXo ... ig&f=false

By the way the " Old Lion " WSC will change a lot his feelings after, ... as we can read on his Second World War volume 3 - The Grand Alliance at pages 272 and 273 about the fate of the Bismarck, ... and his new personal judgements of the RN Officers conduct.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

And move onto page 220 of B&W where they describe the same event again, but contradicting themselves: "Hell of a battle going on" Churchill told Harriman, having burst into the latter's bedroom. "Hood is sunk, hell of a battle". The Prime Minister is wearing a short nightshirt and hence bare legs and a yellow sweater, hardly "strangely calm". :o

I must admit I don't have the Grand Alliance, but WSC covers up the criticism and thus pressure he was pouring on Cunningham that weekend, when he describes things in The Second World War Volume 3 p 259. Of Wake-Walker actions in this volume he says "he was indisputably right".

As the Great Man/Monster said "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it" :D Good job he never saw the recent, terrible film. :shock:


If anyone was going to be court-martialled at WSC behest, it would be Cunningham. Contradicting Admiralty orders, more than half his fleet sunk or disabled, hardly any invasion forces destroyed, and the island lost nonetheless. When he had wanted Somerville carpeted, there was a Board of Enquiry waiting on the dock, there was no such affair organised for W-W and Leach, because there was no desire for a Court Martial from the PM, A V Alexander or Pound. Sometime later, in an off-the-record observation of something that might/or might not have been considered when WSC was at full rant, Pound mentioned it to Tovey, who must said "Well if you had done that, I would have done this!". Old Man Tovey dredged it up in 1962. A legend is born- there never was going to be a 1941 trial.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

we have read above Churchill direct reactions during those days.

In particular from Bercuson & Hervig book above :
Over the next few days, he thundered his anger at Capt Leach, at the First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Dudley Pound and at anyone else he thought responsible.
Lets guess who was the " anyone " else Churchill was thinking about, ... given the message the Admiralty sent to him on the early afternoon, ... inviting him to evaluate the re-engagement of the enemy, ... hoping that the message did not reach him at any " most inconvenient time " ... maybe at tea time : we will never know this ... :wink:

Now lets compare it to the post war summary of the events WSC wrote on his famous books about WW2.

Since I like to share and there are no secrets to be hidden, here you have Churchill book content you miss, enjoy :
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Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

Thanks for doing all that scanning that but of course "The Grand Alliance" is Vol 3 which I quoted. Have a look at the bottom of P 274, (which you have sent me) where he says:
Admiral Wake-Walker therefore decided not to renew the action, but to hold the enemy under observation. In this he was indisputably right
So his "new personal judgements of the RN Officers conduct" is unequivocal support :D

As for Bercuson & Herwig, well we've discussed their book before. I'm recycling my copy as cat litter, ( I haven't shredded P 220 yet) but they are as usual, misinformed, make stuff up and in this case badly paraphrase Colville's account, which I have already presented in its entirety.
""He berated the First Lord and First sea Lord continuously, both on this account and because in the Mediterranean, the navy shows, he thinks a tendency to shirk its task of preventing a seaborne landing in Crete since Cunningham fears severe losses from bombing. The PM's line is that Cunningham must be made to take very risk: the loss of half the Mediterranean Fleet would be worthwhile in order to save Crete."


As you can clearly the main criticism of naval officers is related to the important matter of Crete, not the sideshow of Bismarck.

Unlike B & W, Colville was there, and his evidence is clear.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

YES, " The Grand Alliance" is volume 3, ... you are right, ... you can read it on the cover I have posted above.

I have read it carefully many times, including the statement you have underlined on page 274 bottom :
Admiral Wake-Walker therefore decided not to renew the action, but to hold the enemy under observation. In this he was indisputably right
No doubts that after the war, ... after September 1941, ... that was Sir Winston Churchill official opinion, ... as I always wrote.

The matter we are discussing here is what was his position during those events, ... and B & H do provide a clear scenario of what was the situation during those days, ... as we all know, ... the one that forced Adm Pound to gently " invite " RearAdm Wake-Walker to evaluate the re-engagement of the enemy, ... and wanted to call an inquiry for Leach and WW once back home, .. with Adm Tovey doing what he did to stop the initiative, ... and manage the event declarations change after with his dispatches.

In fact, just to confirm this situation well present on WSC mind, even after the war, I am sure that you have read also some row's above this other statement on the page 274 :
The command now passed to RearAdm Wake-Walker on his bridge in the cruiser Norfolk. It was for him to decide whether to renew the fight at once or hold on to the enemy till the CinC should arrive with the KGV and the aircraft carrier Victorious.
Clearly WSC was still considering the fight renewal "at once" an option for WW, ... and ONLY after the events, ... long time after, ... he choose to declare WW " indisputably right " with his choice between his 2 options on that day.

I love his description of both cruisers ( Suffolk+Norfolk ) doing a perfect shadowing that night on page 273 ... I would have loved to read ViceAdm Holland and Comm Warrand opinions about it, maybe thru the Midshipman W. Dundas interrogation report, since he was there listening to them in the Hood Admiral bridge ... :wink: ... as well as no responsibility for having lost the Bismarck for WW on page 278, ... evidently "after the war" for WSC only Suffolk lost the Bismarck ... :wink:

Have you read thru the pages how sensible WSC was about the troop convoy WS8B destiny ... during those events ...

Anyway, as obvious that book chapter is full of interesting statements that do deserve consideration, ... still keeping in mind that it is an after the events/war book, ... with no criticism of course, ... and a lot of celebrations.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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