The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Cag
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag »

Hi All,

Hi Antoinio, unlike others I'm sure I've not subscribed to a deniers or a promotors club for me it's a little nonsensical. I'm merely pointing out how easy from a certain point of view it can be insinuated for anyone.

Best wishes
Cag.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

you may have noticed that when I have something to say to anybody, I usually do not loose to much time doing it directly.

I do not need to insunuate anything, especially when utilizing as evidence an historian of the level of Stephen Roskill.

What he wrote is more than enough to close this thread about the Court Martial attempt and does provide consequently a solid base I have never even dreamed about for the whole " Denmark Strait Saga " starting from this end of May 1941 occurrence and ending after the rewarding with the September 25th, 1941 statement by Sir Winston Churchill : " Leave it. "

Those are the facts and I personally think that nothing will change them from now on :
Roskill_page_313_note_38_01.jpg.jpg
Roskill_page_313_note_38_01.jpg.jpg (39.05 KiB) Viewed 625 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:

I do not need to insunuate anything, especially when utilizing as evidence an historian of the level of Stephen Roskill.



Bye Antonio :D
So now Roskill is the man of the hour...so hopefully you'll agree with the following from Roskill:
All four ships opened fire at a range of about 25,000 yards between 5.52 and 5.53 a.m. and the two German ships concentrated their fire initially on the Hood...
...The sudden destruction of the battle cruiser flagship enabled the enemy ships to bring the full weight of their combined fire to bear on the Prince of Wales. The range had now closed to about 18,000 yards, and the adversaries had their secondary as well as their main armaments in action. Almost at once (at 6.2 a.m.) the British ship sustained a heavy shell hit on the compass platform, which killed or wounded almost all the officers and men stationed there except the Captain, and within a very few minutes she had received four hits from 15-inch shells and three from the Prinz Eugen* s 8-inch armament. At such comparatively short ranges the enemy’s gunfire was plainly deadly. Moreover, the ship’s fighting capacity had become drastically reduced. In addition to the defective gun in her forward turret another four-gun turret was now temporarily incapacitated by mechanical breakdowns. In these circumstances Captain Leach decided to break off the action and, at 6.13, turned away under cover of smoke. The range was then 14,600 yards.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

can you please explain me what this correlate to this thread subject ?

I am tyred of you and others keep on changing subject all the time and never stay on the subject and only always try to deny refusing and rejecting the evidence proposed about the thread subject.

First you have to agree here in about the Court Martial attempt, which was the area of expertize of an historian like Roskill, ... and after you can ask on the proper thread about what you are proposing, which is more than clear already.

If you do not agree about the Court Martial attempt :

1) Do you have anything that counter Stephen Roskill confirmation about the Court Martial attempt ?

2) Since Stephen Roskill demolished Sir Kennedy theory about Adm Tovey unreliability, do you have anything confirming your and Wadinga theory in that direction ?

The Court Martial attempt is this thread subject, not the German open fire neither the PoW retreat, both more than demonstrated long time ago.

Enough is enough ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

can you please explain me what this correlate to this thread subject ?

I am tyred of you and others keep on changing subject all the time and never stay on the subject and only always try to deny refusing and rejecting the evidence proposed about the thread subject.

First you have to agree here in about the Court Martial attempt, which was the area of expertize of an historian like Roskill, ... and after you can ask on the proper thread about what you are proposing, which is more than clear already.

If you do not agree about the Court Martial attempt :

1) Do you have anything that counter Stephen Roskill confirmation about the Court Martial attempt ?

2) Since Stephen Roskill demolished Sir Kennedy theory about Adm Tovey unreliability, do you have anything confirming your and Wadinga theory in that direction ?

The Court Martial attempt is this thread subject, not the German open fire neither the PoW retreat, both more than demonstrated long time ago.

Enough is enough ...

Bye Antonio :D
It seems obvious: Roskill is an unimpeachable source, only when YOU agree with what he's saying...otherwise he's a charlatan with no more credibility than Kennedy, or the arch liar and criminal conspirator, Tovey, whose supposedly fraudulent Despatch is the basis for your current line of inquiry.

Roskill in no way confirms anything about a court martial attempt. BTW, a CM attempt isn't just something that's mentioned in casual conversation, but I'll leave that for now.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi all,
just ignoring, for the time being, the diversion attempts to the main topic (e.g. underlying the errors in Roskill reconstruction of the DS battle, when the reconstruction of the battle had NEVER been the scope of Roskill (there was a certain Pitcairn-Jones doing this in the RN). BTW, Roskill errors are exactly the same as Kennedy did in his (until now) celebrated book..... and all these errors came from the intentionally incorrect Tovey despatches),

here another confirmation, from the material from the Churchill Archives, that Kennedy attempt to use Paffard to discredit the Court Martial story is just....bullshit.... written with the intention to question Tovey's memory and lucidity while accounting for it :oops: .
As a reference, here the unfair note from Kennedy in his "Pursuit": "In fairness to Pound, it should be said that in later life Tovey's memory let him down, and he was apt to exaggerate....... . I think his memory only began to play tricks after he had suddenly retired from all public life and virtually became a hermit. With no current interests and nobody to talk to other than his wife, it was understandable that he brooded more and more on the past, and particularly on the controversial aspects of his command of the Home Fleet; and Lady Tovey, in constant pain from arthritis, and always by nature inclined to put the worst construction on everything, undoubtedly nurtured his resentment and encouraged him to magnify the disagreements he had had with Churchill and Pound.'"

And here the crystal clear Roskill answer to these insinuations in a letter to Kennedy that I just received from the Archives:
Roskill to Kennedy on 1972: "Tovey came in several times to discuss the Bismarck Operation with me, Certainly he felt very strongly about the towing signal and about the threat to Wake-Walker. But he was always in very cheerful, even high, spirits, and I would never have applied the verb "brood" to his reminiscences. I could actually tell you quite a number of other cases where Pound threatened to have senior officers court-martialled, and one or two cases where he actually did so. He was relentless about any failure."
These, added to the letter from Roskill to Kennedy on 1973, already posted (here again for everybody convenience), should (hopefully :think: ) kill the credibility of Paffard's comments, misused as an insinuation by Kennedy, once forever, as they were written by the RN historian (whose interest was exactly the interference of Churchill into the RN affairs and Pound "addiction" to inquiries), a man who spoke and corresponded several times with Tovey himself (differently from Kennendy, who however ignored Roskill's advise and published it in his "fantasy novel").
Roskill to Kennedy on 1973: "About Paffard's memories referred to at page 8, I am sure he is only correct about the last years of Tovey's life. Between about 1952 and 1960 he often came to see me bringing letters and papers, and was enormously interested in my work, all of which he read in draft. It was only at the end of his life that he became what Paffard calls a 'hermit'"
I can easily guess that even this will not suffice to the "ones who are here only to deny all evidence at any cost"....... :( ....however, more to come soon about Pound and Churchill !


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

Bravo Alberto !!!

A very clear explanation on how Stephen Roskill " demolished " Sir Ludovic Kennedy unfair attempt on trying to declare Adm Tovey unreliable due to his late lifestyle conduct. :clap:

Now the supporter of Sir Kennedy theory of Adm Tovey unreliability should admit their miserable failure on believeing on it.

More, as obvious consequent correlation now Colin McMullen IWM available interview is free on any sort of doubt as well about Adm Tovey reliability concerns, and does provide another very strong solid reference about this " regrettable aftermath " of the Bismarck chase.

We have Stephen Roskill, we have Colin McMullen, ... not to forget Tarrant/Sir Henry Leach too.

This debate is CLOSED, the Court martial attempt as well as the whole " Denmark Strait Saga " is well proved and demonstrated in all its development from the end of May until late September of 1941.

@ Dunmunro,

you wrote :
Roskill in no way confirms anything about a court martial attempt.

BTW, a CM attempt isn't just something that's mentioned in casual conversation, but I'll leave that for now.
As you can read above also in Stephen Roskill letters to Sir Kennedy, adding them to the 2 available Roskill book contents, you are obviously demonstrated being incorrect with your statement above.

Now, having re-constructed this " Denmark Strait Saga " bottom up from the intentionally incorrectly written dispatches, up to the Sir J. Barnes Admiralty response to Adm Tovey, and now up to Sir W. Churchill, you already know in full details what this means in terms of amount of shameful actions that has been done after this Court Martial attempt, in order to officially reward by the King the involved Officers.

Now I wait your as well as the other " deniers " admission of failure, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: In this case it is NOT important why it happened, ... if it happened, ... etc etc ...
What is important is that in case we do not find the material Stephen Roskill is referring to, we know one possible reason of the missing documents.
I still don't understand. Is something missing?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag »

Hi All,

Hi Herr Nilsson, hope you are well, Wadinga has seen 205/10 (I think it is called) therefore he can be asked about this, Alberto has some Roskill papers to Kennedy and I'll be seeing Roskill Bismarck papers tomorrow, fingers crossed!

I'm a bit confused about all of this, I had thought this forum was about research, discussion and acceptance of other opinions sharing info etc. With terms like winners and losers etc etc etc etc being constantly thrust about I'm afraid I no longer believe that.

It seems to be something very different and Therefore something I'd rather not to be involved in.

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

from your post above and your question I realize that finally your are convinced and agree about this Court Martial attempt and consequently about the " Denmark Strait Saga " that started from it until the final rewarding on September 1941.

Am I right ? Please confirm. Thanks.

Moving to your question the explanation is very easy.

I do NOT have yet in my hands the full document Adm 205/10, the document Stephen Roskill wrote does contain the correspondence among the Sea Lord Admiral Sir Dudley Pound, the First Lord of the Admiralty A.V. Alexander 1st Earl of Hillsborough and the Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill related to this aborted May 1941 Court Martial attempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._V._Ale ... llsborough

Even if we are not going to find in that document the correspondence Stephan Roskill read and was referring to with his book note, I will not mind at all given the explanation that Stephen Roskill himself provided about certain historical documents being often eliminated on the Archives with the process he described. Obviously I hope to find them for my curiosity. :wink:

For me is more than enough Stephen Roskill note about their full awareness about the whole story of this " Denmark Strait Saga" and the final September 25th, 1941 statement of Churchill closing it as confirmed by Stephen Roskill too.

I think you would agree on the act that now everything is well proved ... Adm Tovey reliability is NOT in discussion anymore, ... Colin McMullen IWM interview is a reliable evidence too, ... Sir Henry Leach knew about all this story probably also from those evidence, ... and all this story I re-constructed bottom up from the Tovey dispatches until this point is FULLY CONFIRMED.

@ CAG,

you are right CAG, ... and everything went well up until we started discussing about the Articles of War and this Court Martial attempt, and from that point onward no more fairness in this discussion from the " deniers at any cost" side, just a " blind and stubborn " approach no matter what.

Now that all is clear and well demonstrated ... they must admit they have been wrong all the way thru and ... often even unfair on their " hooligan conduct " that somebody clearly declared was even proud of in writing, not to talk about somebody I will NOT define being myself an educated person, ... that wanted and proposed to try a legal action against me to try to STOP my researches, ... or somebody offending me in public too at the beginning, ... etc etc

There are NOT arguments that cannot be researched and discussed about, ... NOT for me, ... because I am NOT English nor German and I have NO side taken as well demonstrated several times.

Somebody clearly wanted to take a side ... and failed miserably.

Lets see how elegant it will be now being on the looser side ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
Bravo Alberto !!!
Yes Bravo indeed, for confirming from real documentation that Roskill reports Tovey considered Pound was in the habit of making many threats of Court Martial, very few of which were ever followed up on.
I could actually tell you quite a number of other cases where Pound threatened to have senior officers court-martialled, and one or two cases where he actually did so. He was relentless about any failure."
"quite a number" versus maximum "two" actually followed through. :shock:

Maybe Maund of the Ark Royal?
Following the sinking, a Board of Inquiry was established to investigate the loss. Based on its findings, Maund was court-martialled for negligence in February 1942. He was found guilty on two counts of negligence: one of failing to ensure that properly constituted damage control parties had remained on board after the general evacuation, and one of failing to ensure the ship was in a sufficient state of readiness to deal with possible damage.[3] The board tempered their judgement with an acknowledgement that a high standard was being expected of Maund, and that he was primarily concerned with the welfare of his crew.[3]
Maybe Drew of the Manchester
Her commanding officer, Captain Harold Drew, was court-martialled due to the Admiralty's belief that the ship was still navigable and capable of reaching a neutral port. Captain Drew was initially led to believe that he was taking part in an enquiry, and was only informed at the end of the trial that he was in fact being charged with negligence by a court martial.[3] He was found guilty, and was reprimanded and dismissed. It was and remains a contentious decision; the ship had been crippled, and the Captain had feared the ship, including her radar gear, might fall into enemy hands.
But then Somerville also had one over Spartviento. But maybe that doesn't count because Pound tried to stop it once he realised it would go wrong and Somerville's actions would be supported by the Board. Just goes to show how faulty Tovey's recollection is.

This thread has always been about whether there was a serious threat of actual Court Martial, ie where evidence is gathered by a team of investigators, the legality and viability of an accusation is considered by naval lawyers, and the decision to go ahead is made. I have never doubted that at some stage Pound said something about a CM to Tovey, which the latter magnified into an occasion where his heroic counter-threat stopped the whole process in its tracks. If the First Sea Lord wants something and maybe the First Lord and the PM want it as well, Tovey would have been steam-rollered.

I have heard exasperated mothers threaten misbehaving children "I'll kill you if you do that again!" but have never informed the police of a threat to kill. Pound apparently, according to Tovey also made threats he never had any intention of following through. I have also provided examples of Pound following through with actual CM eg Norris of the Aberdeen even when Pound knew/hoped he would be exonerated.

A generation of writers have cynically parroted the CMDS story, Tarrant et al, without, apparently, the slightest effort to verify it despite Kennedy's caveats. My belief is since the supposed threat was apparently never initiated, and the potential victims were showered with honours instead, these otherwise excellent authors considered it a trivial footnote. Which deserves to be exposed for what it is.

Antonio's hopes of incriminating evidence in 205/10 now rest on imagining what might have been there when Roskill looked at it in 1954ish, but is magically not there now. I know what is there now. There are hundreds of pages in 205/10 and I have already provided information on the only items which are relevant. If Cag wishes to visit Kew he could do the same. Antonio can fly in if he likes, but it would be cheaper and more helpful for his case to continue imagining damning information which has been "removed" rather than discover it never existed in the first place.

Pafford knew Tovey far better than Roskill. As several other contributors have noted Tovey was already providing inaccurate information to Roskill in 1954. Or did another lot of conspirators modify the "run out of fuel" and "shores of France" signals retrospectively? :shock:

Where in his conversations with Roskill does Tovey admit the Cover-Up A & A have fantasised, including his major part in perpetrating it, and celebrated his personal success in pulling the wool over Pound's eyes? Maybe Cag will find this?

This business gets more preposterous with every post. :lol:

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

very evidently you do not know now how to admit a very evident personal failure with dignity and elegance.

I will NOT take all your last year post's and make you ridicolous now, I preffer to go back on my models.

This case is CLOSED. Enough has been said, ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: ".....confirming from real documentation that Roskill reports Tovey considered Pound was in the habit of making many threats of Court Martial"
Hi Sean,
I'm afraid that the shock for having in front of you the proof that demolish any attempt to discredit Tovey memory regarding the Court martial has confused you a bit.....It's NOT Tovey who considers that Pound was in habit of making CM threats..... it's Roskill.....

I do think you need to read carefully what I posted above and take the time to digest it. It will also demonstrate that Paffard was MISUSED by Kennedy to discredit the CM story, when you take into account that Paffard only said Tovey memory was failing in his LAST years and Roskill is speaking about 1952-1960 period.....when Tovey was in high spirits and much interested to Roskill work..... :wink:

you wrote: "If the First Sea Lord wants something and maybe the First Lord and the PM want it as well, Tovey would have been steam-rollered."
Sean, you forget that Bismarck had been already sunk. This (not Tovey counter-threat) saved these officers, who left the Bismarck free in Atlantic, from a well deserved Court-Martial. The CM would have been surely celebrated, had Bismarck continued her mission and sunk merchant or troop convoys, causing severe damages. :negative:


Antonio Bonomi wrote: "you do not know now how to admit a very evident personal failure with dignity and elegance."
Antonio,
don't be surprised. No one of the "ones who deny all evidence at any cost" has ever admitted with dignity that he was wrong, in all these years, even when convicted by simple geometry. It would have been surprising the contrary. At least Sean was courageous enough to try an hopeless defense, instead of simply disappearing....., or not answering your questions..... or just complaining about a lack of fair play....... :negative:

Of course a simple admission: "I was wrong" would have been much more dignifying.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Bravissimo Vol III

Rereading the except, you are correct, it is indeed Roskill (giant military historian) writing to Kennedy who observes:
I could actually tell you quite a number of other cases where Pound threatened to have senior officers court-martialled, and one or two cases where he actually did so. He was relentless about any failure."
In your normal style you "fail to see the wood for the trees" because the significant point is that Pound is described as frequently threatening Court Martial and yet only a tiny number, one or two, go through. Since he is the First Sea Lord and thus has the power to simply order CM, it is clear this was not a serious threat (like the vast majority he made) and should never have been considered so and simply ignored. This fits perfectly with Tovey's "get stuffed" response stopping the idea dead, and him "not hearing any more about it" because Pound never intended it to go anywhere, anyway. This silly, empty, trivial, threat has achieved a status it has never deserved through Tovey's distorted recollection, despite Roskill's determination not to dignify it with publication for over 20 years. Even when it was Roskill offloaded the responsibility, because there was no evidence.

Pound was obviously not "relentless" at all, since in the vast majority of cases he relented.

I have quoted examples of Pound losing his temper, and saying things later regretted, from Brodhurst's biography of Pound (IMHO an even handed portrayal of the man).

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Sean,
I'm happy you finally HAD TO RECOGNIZE that the Court Martial threat was a fact, now well demonstrated.
Now we are in agreement on this key point, that you (and someone else) had been stubbornly denying for years :stubborn:, despite the common logic and the Royal Navy discipline were already demonstrating it (if you, using your "nice" words :negative:, had not "failed to see the wood for the trees").

At this point, we can only speculate whether it was a "light" or a "strong" threat.
Looking at:
1) the May 24 message sent to Wake_Walker by the Admiralty regarding his intentions to re-engage (and W-W feelings about it),
2) W.Churchill comments on May 25 ("the worst thing since Troubridge turned away from the Goeben in 1914") and
3) the comments from Pound at the Cabinet on May 26 ("The PoW had then broken off action. Whether or not she had been right in doing so could not be judged on the information so far available")
I would say that BEFORE Bismarck was sunk the threat was a VERY STRONG one.

More, looking at the intentional and evident alteration of the facts in the reports, I would say that Tovey himself felt that this menace had been a VERY, VERY STRONG one , even after Bismarck had already been sunk, while he was carefully evaluating what to write in points 17 and 19 of his despatches...... :wink: .

Anyway, if you consider "key" the point that Pound is demonstrated to have been relentless about any failure, the Prime Minister was surely even more (as Adm.North and Cape Spartivento cases demonstrated) and they together would have never accepted a "happy ending" with the Bismarck still afloat. :negative:


The shameful aspect (only tempered by the need of wartime propaganda) is that, after the "need" for a Court Martial was mainly over, due to the final success of the Bismarck Operation, instead of the deserved CM or, at least, of a serious inquiry, these officers were even rewarded together with the ones who deserved it (differently from Cape Spartivento, where the inquiry was done, Somerville was discharged but..... not decorated.......), after Churchill terse statement "Leave it" on September 25th, 1941.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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