The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Cag
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:49 pm

Hi All

Hi Wadinga,
I think Alberto has posted the relevant bit of Toveys letter correctly to be totally fair. The CM affair is mentioned as posted and I think in a later letter but only in so far as Tovey seeing nothing would be gained by mentioning critisism of Tovey Pound or Churchill or of WW.

The towing signal is mentioned quite a lot in his letters and I will post what I've found in my notes on the new thread.

Best wishes
Cag.

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:30 pm

Hello Cag,

Thanks for the confirmation. Since we have:
in one letter (1962), Tovey wrote to Roskill that the text was:
"if necessary she is to be pursued right up to the shores of France, even if the K:G.V. has to be towed home"

in another letter to Bellairs (1950) Tovey said it was: "you are to continue the pursuit right up to the shores of France even if you have to be towed home"

in another letter to Roskill (1954) Tovey says that the message was "ordering me to continue the chase up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. had to be towed back"

Finally in the "Court Martial" letter from December 1961, Tovey wrote that the message was: "you are to continue the pursuit right up the coast of France, even if it means your ship being towed back"
I assume that there is no detail about CMDS in the 1962 letter to Roskill but just a mention, and whatever there is it doesn't suggest it happened at a different time, or in a different form, say like a letter or affecting different people, say like only Leach.

The determination to split issues of Tovey's unhappiness with Pound's ROOF signal and the apocryphal CMDS threat is unacceptable. They happened in the same phone call. If Tovey's emphasis through four different letters is ROOF and his second priority for CMDS in the 1961 letter it means that the most important first priority in the phone call was ROOF.

I am just ploughing through the Bismarckops2 listing to confirm Dunmunro's critical point that there is no mention of the "Coast/shores of France", or indeed the coast of Spain, Belgium, Westeros or even Honalee in the 1941 communications. Tovey has spent 11 years carrying on to Roskill about something that he invented in his imagination and never happened. :shock:

BTW I perfectly well respect your position over reproducing material.

All the best

wadinga

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:39 pm

Hello everybody,

neither the Cout Martial attempt nor the " Towing signal " has been mentioned into Adm Tovey dispatches, ... this is for sure and again in line with the times, ... when not all the truth was supposed to be communicated as it occurred.

Anyway, ... this letter closes the matter as it was written by one of the only 2 persons on that May 30th, 1941 call, ... since Adm Pound died 2 years after the event, still during war time and never made mention about it, ... so only Adm Tovey could do it after the war.
Tovey_Roskill_Court_Martial_1961.jpg
Tovey_Roskill_Court_Martial_1961.jpg (111.62 KiB) Viewed 513 times
I think that with this text and the whole set of related links available on my recap :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8240

we can consider closed this subject unless new evidence will surface.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:22 pm

Hello Antonio,
neither the Cout Martial attempt nor the " Towing signal " has been mentioned into Adm Tovey dispatches
It would be difficult to mention the Court Martial attempt since it happened (if it happened at all) after the period covered by the dispatches. None of the other stupid ROOF signals to Tovey's detached units are mentioned.

Now we have the umpteenth tedious reposting of the redacted version of Tovey's letter, in which the first thing and therefore first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it. In four letters in total, CMDS is only mentioned at all in two. It was obviously not significant for Tovey, I believe because he knew it was not a real threat and whatever was said was uttered thoughtlessly in a heated argument about the ROOF signal which is what Tovey was really peeved about. ROOF was what he kept on about for 11 years.

That these letters largely witter on about an imagined instruction to continue to the "Coasts of France" shows that Pafford's assertion that Tovey misremembered and exaggerated was absolutely spot-on, and applied as early as 1950. Just because Roskill found Tovey personable during his researches, does not mean his information was at all accurate.

Alberto has tried to muddle things with
11 rows are dedicated to point 1, the towing signal
35 rows are dedicated to the Court Martial threat (I have posted them entirely, see above)
But since the 35 rows include the whole theatrical "Rule of 3" presentation of the author's heroic stand, against the might of Admiralty (I want-no, I really, really want-no, I really, really, really want-NO!............. Oh. OK then- I give up) is this significant? Whereas somewhere in the redacted 11 lines is described the First Sea Lord, dripping with gold braid, imperious in his Majesty, having to apologise to his underling for the "stupidest signal ever sent", eat a bakery-full of humble pie and promise to do the impossible........... ie expunge the inexpungeable.

As self-attested experts on naming and shaming I would hope you would add those authors who have lazily parroted the CMDS story without adding the Kennedy caveats and Pafford's reservations about his former boss's memory failings. Churchill has always been a controversial figure and most of these accounts were written during the period when kicking against his deification was most fashionable. Not bothering with further detail about such a hazy insubstantial threat was acceptable because there was no harm done. The potential victims were instead rightly lauded for their efforts, loaded with honours and continued to give good service to the RN to the end of their days.

As recent deveolpments have shown there is much to learn about CMDS.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:37 pm

Wadinga wrote: "first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it.....Alberto has tried to muddle things..."
Totally unable to understand what you read, ungrateful and shameless....as in all your last posts... :stop:

Go to get the documents (spending your money instead of begging for someone else to post them) ! :kaput:


Alberto
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm

Hello everybody,

it seems to me obvious that the TRUTH is annoying and disturbing someone lately.

For me, ... as I wrote above, ... this case is CLOSED and the Court Martial attempt well proven.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:55 pm

Hello Antonio,

If its closed you won't need to post here again.

Alberto, I'm disappointed, haven't I effusively thanked you in the past and I'm confused - are you offering to sell me the truth? Maybe I will sign the non disclosure in Cambridge and find out what the 11 lines say instead of guessing.
somewhere in the redacted 11 lines is described the First Sea Lord, dripping with gold braid, imperious in his Majesty, having to apologise to his underling for the "stupidest signal ever sent", eat a bakery-full of humble pie and promise to do the impossible........... ie expunge the inexpungeable.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:01 pm

Wadinga wrote: "haven't I effusively thanked you......first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it.....Alberto has tried to muddle things...the redacted version of Tovey's letter..."
You thanked me.... and then you accuse me.... I'm not disappointed, I'm disgusted by your tactic.
You are just shameless and ungrateful, in your ridiculous attempt to deny any evidences. :kaput:

I do hope you will be able and willing to get some new info before opening your mouth again on this subject... :quiet:


Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:57 pm

Hello Alberto,

I really don't see why you are so het-up. :shock:
Wadinga wrote: "Did you remove the reference to the towing signal when you reproduced the 1961 letter leaving 1)
Hi Sean,
yes I did,
So you freely admit withholding the 11 lines. :? This surely accepts that you have redacted Tovey's letter.

Because you apparently think that part of a single phone conversation referencing the ROOF signal has nothing to do with that part of the same conversation relating to an imagined CMDS? Surely it is you constantly accusing me of getting "annoyed" about things as they come to light. It is indeed inconvenient for your supposition that Tovey talks first in this case and in several letters only about ROOF, and particularly the "Shores of France" which as far as we can tell was never said to him.

I also cannot see why you are so sensitive- giving details of the 35 lines relating to CMDS, whilst witholding 11 lines about ROOF. Sure finding out what words are in it it may knock a massive hole in the whole CMDS and hence the Conspiracy Theory but,
it seems to me obvious that the TRUTH is annoying and disturbing someone lately
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:46 pm

Wadinga wrote: "....first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious :negative: , if Alberto had not removed it :kaput: .....Alberto has tried to muddle things :negative: ....the redacted :?: version of Tovey's letter..."
and then:
he wrote: "I really don't see why you are so het-up" :think:
No comment is needed from my side, excuses are just due from his side, as he insists to insinuate that I have hidden info, despite someone at the top of this page fairly tried to warn him that he was simply WRONG (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728&p=77124#p77077).


I just remind him the topic of this thread, apparently not yet understood, looking at the "well concocted fruit salad" he proposes all the time, mixing Crete with Denmark Strait and the Court Martial with the towing signal.....

The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

kindly reminding him that there is another thread where we have posted the relevant passages of Tovey's letters regarding the towing signal and where some new interesting discussion is going on: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:38 am

Hi All

Hi Wadinga, thanks, I'll try to post the relevant facts, the first bit is about the message and generally repeats what we know. Again to be fair to Alberto he has given, as far as I can tell from my notes, the CM threat wording correct.

I would therefore have to agree that this thread is regarding the CM for the Denmark Strait. But then with the caveat that it is also not about Wake-Walkers use of his cruisers during the chase, or during the action, or thereafter. It is also not about Leach disengaging on the morning of the 24th, his reasons or his accurate report or that of his Gunnery officer. These are not related to the CM threat and nor is the cabinet correspondance regarding the various meetings and house keeping.

We have found Toveys letters that confirm he talks of a phone call that threatened Wake-Walker and Leach with a court martial for not re-engaging Bismarck after Hood was sunk. Tovey threatened to resign and no more was heard. That is the story of the DS CM thread.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:54 pm

Hello Cag,
Hi Wadinga, thanks, I'll try to post the relevant facts, the first bit is about the message and generally repeats what we know.
Thank you please do so, as far as you are able to.
Again to be fair to Alberto he has given, as far as I can tell from my notes, the CM threat wording correct.
And I have recorded my my profound appreciation for him having done so.
I would therefore have to agree that this thread is regarding the CM for the Denmark Strait.
Yes it is, and therefore material that allows us to test the validity of Tovey's assertion about CMDS must also be tested here. Specifically the redacted 1st paragraph related to the non existent "Shores of France" signal, which dominates Tovey's writing to Roskill over the years, and seems to have been the first matter discussed in the single phone call.

The thematic separation of events which were happening simultaneously to the same individuals is a contrivance which may appear superficially attractive to the ordered mind, but is actually logically indefensible . In one phone call, presumably Pound first congratulated Tovey, Tovey then turned on Pound who had to abjectly apologise for the ridiculous 1137B ROOF signal and lastly there may have been some reference to a threat of Court Martial. It is ludicrous to pretend that the contents of a single conversation can be dismembered and treated separately as if they have no effect on one another. It is a whole.

It is clear that what Pound expected to be a highly agreeable and congratulatory back slapping conversation where he first would first laud Tovey and Tovey would then say he could not have done it without Pound's interventions, turned unpleasant and accusatory very quickly. Pound had immediately to be defensive over the 1137B signal, which he did not admit at the time was Churchill's and not his fault. We do not have verbatim what the CMDS threat was, but only Tovey's description recorded many years after.

Now a proposal for a new, valuable, thread and not desperate attempts to divert attention from CMDS. The Lutjen's Long Signal and the faulty D/F position thread.

Overarching this conversation, and the unmentioned Elephant in the room, was the matter of the faulty D/F position. It is not mentioned in the phone call at all, or in any version of Tovey's Report, yet it is an enormous bone of contention between the two men. Was it faulty work at the Admiralty or faulty work in Tovey's flagship?

If anybody, anywhere was going to get Court Martialled it would be Fleet Navigator Frank Lloyd who apparently in a tyro's mistake misplotted bearings and sent Tovey on a wild goose chase which almost let Bismarck get away. If there is any cover up this is it, and the thousands of hours we have wasted here on a fabricated Conspiracy Theory generated for motives best left moot, have left this uninvestigated. Did the Admiralty supply muddled bearings which Lloyd resolved away to the north? Are the signals referring with these bearings in the signal listing? Did Tovey's high-handed instructions preclude the Admiralty at least providing their estimated position to compare with that generated by Lloyd?

Was there, perhaps in this same phone call, an unrecorded conversation where Tovey accused Pound of sending him faulty information? Did Pound accuse Tovey of incompetence in his team in using this vital intelligence? Is this a matter that nobody recorded because both parties blamed each other and it signposted a critical failure in RN intelligence handling?

The matter of CMDS remains open for new information.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:16 pm

Wadinag wrote: "The matter of CMDS remains open for new information."
Sure, it remains open, stay tuned and you will surely see even more, I can guarantee you..... :lol:

For the time being, the Court Martial threat is so well proven by Tovey letters, Tovey conversation with McMullen, Roskill statements in his books (+ other historians), ADM 205/10 papers and Sir Henry Leach confirmation (in addition to the intentional alteration of the official reports to counter it, of course), that the "new information" must now come from your side... if you are able to find any to counter all the above ones.... :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Hello Alberto,

I used the search to see whether you just cut and paste this stuff but you actually type it all
For the time being, the Court Martial threat is so well proven by Tovey letters, Tovey conversation with McMullen, Roskill statements in his books (+ other historians), ADM 205/10 papers and Sir Henry Leach confirmation (in addition to the intentional alteration of the official reports to counter it, of course), that the "new information" must now come from your side... if you are able to find any to counter all the above ones...
When you could just say Tovey asserts. All the rest is just unqualified, unresearched repetition.

Worth repetition IMHO is
therefore material that allows us to test the validity of Tovey's assertion about CMDS must also be tested here. Specifically the redacted 1st paragraph related to the non existent "Shores of France" signal, which dominates Tovey's writing to Roskill over the years, and seems to have been the first matter discussed in the single phone call.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:39 pm

Wadinga wrote: "I used the search to see whether you just cut and paste this stuff..."
Sorry you were disappointed, I'm not so lazy as you are not getting the information before speaking.

you wrote: "When you could just say Tovey asserts. All the rest is just unqualified, unresearched repetition. "
I would have liked to see Roskill reaction to your FALSE statement above. He did researches, he investigated into the Court Martial (as well as into the "shores of France" signal, btw).... and he confirmed it as reliable in his books. :negative:

I would have liked to see you telling McMullen and Blake they were unable to understand that their guest (Tovey) was "stoned" when speaking with them and mentioning the Court Martial. :negative:

I would have loved to see you daring to tell Pound, Alexander and ....Churchill that they all misunderstood the "certain aspects" requiring further info when they wrote papers in ADM 205/10. :negative:


Apparently you are a better historian that Roskill, you know Tovey better than Blake and McMullen, you have better information than Sir Henry Leach about his father and the RN standards, and you are better informed than Pound, Alexander and Churchill .... :clap:


Congratulations for making again a fool of yourself, speaking about things you don't understand and not presenting a single evidence to disprove them.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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