The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:45 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

YES, you are absolutely right.

Now it is very funny to see who denied for so many years the obvious we were progressively discovering starting from Adm Tovey dispatches, ... still trying to avoid to admit, ... despite the overwhelming evidence surfaced lately I had never hoped to find and have in my hands, ... that we were right all the way thru up to the politicians and WSC involvement, ... and consequently they were obvioulsy wrong with their stubborn and blind refusal positions.

I am very curious now to know, given what has been recently published on this forum, what is your current position about all this story.

Do you believe that the Pound/Tovey phone call about the Board of Inquiry/Court Martial for Wake-Walker and Leach never happened ?

Do you believe that no " Cover Up " has been done in order to save and after reward them in October 1941 ?

Do you believe that this " Denmark Strait Saga ", as Sir Henry Leach called it, from May 24th, 1941 until October 14th, 1941 never occurred ?

I like to have your current opinion, ... on the above 3 points, ... just for my personal curiosity of course.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:00 pm

Hello Alberto,
A confirmation of the seriousness of the matter is that it is the first topic of the letter, NO more important matters are
So in the 1961 letter to Roskill, the only one you have supplied in full, Tovey's outrage over the apparently non-existent "Shores of France" message is much more important than the CMDS threat? Was there really a serious threat at all? Or did he just exaggerate a bit 20 years after it supposedly happened?

Where does Tovey mention the CM to Bellairs saying it was due to political interference, please
Good point, touche! He is only bleating to Bellairs about the imaginary "Shores of France" which is evidently much more important than the apocryphal threat. However my misunderstanding of this is largely through your refusal to supply the text of any of these other letters. Am I right in thinking the apocryphal threat is only mentioned at all in the 1961 letter to Roskill, and then only as second priority? Is it mentioned at all in any of the other letters?

Tovey just makes it clear in the 31st letter he knows political interference is responsible for the threat to W-W and Leach. Since he doesn't mention the "Shores of France" at all, because it will not become the most important thing until 1950, he doesn't associate the political interference with that as well. Apparently.

Less than half the 31st letter is concerned with the apocryphal threat, and the rest is all about other matters. The apocryphal threat is already history for Tovey, no more time need be wasted on it, and since he as C-in-C hears no more about it, and no investigation could possibly take place without him knowing, there is no investigation. Whatever AVA fobs the PM off with.

You are certainly ingenious to imagine Tovey's need to delay talking to W-W and Leach is to allow them to change their reports. In reality it is merely because they do not even need to know and worry about the apocryphal threat since Tovey has made it clear that he will not connive in Pound's request. The letter leaves Pound in no doubt. If he wants a sham investigation, he will have to insist, which he doesn't. Because even he knows the potential victims have done nothing wrong which is why he leaves them in their responsible positions. There is no evidence W-W or Leach knew anything of the apocryphal threat in the rest of their short lives.

You have missed the subtlety in Pound's letter to Alexander
I suggest that the report to the War Cabinet should be on the following lines
Means "We'll tell them it's all been checked and everything's just fine, yada yada yada", in other words BS them because we have more important things to do!

It had been successfully forgotten about from June until September.


Hi Marc, there are indeed many humorous items in these threads, but the biggest laugh will be if "Corte Marziale nello Stretto di Danimarca" Nuova luce su un impegno famoso ever makes into print. :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:21 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

Marc, please explain to our " friends " that the article :
Stretto di Danimarca 24 Maggio 1941 : Nuove evidenze.
Has been already printed and published on February 2017 on Storia Militare Nr. 281 from page 4 to page 16 included.

The " black knight " lost again also in this case, ... and I am laughing now ... :wink:

Thanks for your help on this ... you know lately it seems to me that they are having a lot of troubles even reading and understanding very simple statements in their own native language written on the documents.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:55 pm

Wadinga wrote: "....the apocryphal threat ......Is it mentioned at all in any of the other letters? "
Yes, it is (albeit implicitly in one single line).
In addition to letters, have you managed to remove from your memory McMullen IWM crystal clear interview, where Tovey referred of the Court Martial to Blake and McMullen ? :wink:


you wrote: "You are certainly ingenious to imagine Tovey's need to delay talking to W-W and Leach is to allow them to change their reports. "
No, I'm just logical. Why should Tovey underline that he answered Pound BEFORE seeing the 2 officers if not to be prepared to tell them what to do ? :think:


you wrote: "We'll tell them it's all been checked and everything's just fine, yada yada yada"
Great Sean ! :clap:
You have found, at the highest possible level, the lie and the conspiracy ! Instead of a serious investigation they conspired and decided to "adjust" all the story using the despatches ! We missed this additional proof of the high level involvement in the cover-up. We now have also this evidence, thanks to you who were able to see "the subtlety in Pound's letter to Alexander". :clap:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:52 pm

Hello Alberto,
McMullen IWM crystal clear interview, where Tovey referred of the Court Martial to Blake and McMullen ?
Nobody denies Tovey believed his misrememberings. Why should he tell McMullen anything different to Roskill? So he's consistent- he kept banging on about a signal he never received for 11 years.
(albeit implicitly in one single line)
You old tease :D In one other letter, in all the others, which? Is the "implicitly" like giving someone a weather forecast and them having to know it "implicitly" means a direct order from the 1st Sea Lord " you are to continue the pursuit right up to the shores of France even if you have to be towed home "?
Why should Tovey underline that he answered Pound BEFORE seeing the 2 officers if not to be prepared to tell them what to do ?
If he wants a sham investigation, he will have to insist, which he doesn't. Because even he knows the potential victims have done nothing wrong which is why he leaves them in their responsible positions. There is no evidence W-W or Leach knew anything of the apocryphal threat in the rest of their short lives.
I thought I spelled it out for you. To allow Pound time to abandon his stupid idea of a sham Inquiry to appease Churchill without the potential victims having to worry or even know about the thought. Which he did.

For Antonio:

I had discounted the Storia article, I thought there would be a book. However pulping an entire print run is so expensive.

You must be so pleased to be compared on Facebook to Cernuschi who promulgated the imaginative story about Warspite being hit by Guilio Cesare at Punto Stilo. I always imagined your objective once you left the facts behind was to emulate him, and now you've made it! Congratulations!
Per pura combinazione ho riletto in questi giorni i due articoli di Cernuschi su Punta Stilo apparsi sulla rivista qualche anno fa (mi pare 2008 e 2012).
By pure combination I reread these days the two articles of Cernuschi on Punta Stilo appeared in the magazine a few years ago (Methinks 2008 and 2012).

I've read a translation of the article and all I can say it must have been an empty issue...............

I guess you found the "Silver Bullet" since then. :D Can't wait to find out what it is. When's that being fired? :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:23 pm

Hello everybody,

somebody is very evidently left with no arguments, and consequently tries with offensive comparison made among poor " hooligans " with very limited brains, ... not a problem.

We have here now the third big looser, ... after Winklareth and Vic Dale, ... here comes Wadinga with his denier supporters.

Go and study geometry, bearings and also base mathematics before trying to challenge me next time.

I avoided to make you ridiculous in the past when you exposed yourself several times with nonsense, but now enough is enough.

After having lost this historical discussion ... try not to loose also your dignity ... just as you are doing now.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:18 pm

@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
I see that at least you don't insist in your masochistic denial of the "thorough investigation" (that would have confirmed an explicit cover-up at the highest levels in the Royal Navy). :clap: Therefore you admit that there was an investigation, as per posted evidences. I hope you will not come back again in some days with the same incorrect statements..... :stop:


you wrote: "nobody denies Tovey believed his misrememberings. Why should he tell McMullen anything different to Roskill? So he's consistent"
the "misrememberings" have to be proven..... this is your problem because they are just your speculations.
Tovey letters are consistent, regarding the threat to Leach and W-W from 1941 till 1962, he was very lucid and reliable and the insinuations about his misremembering were clearly contradicted in writing by S.Roskill. :negative:

Are you really unable to see that the threat was actually there ? What do you need more than:
  • Tovey 1941 and 1961 letters (available in full text, both confirming the threat in milder or more tough words) ?
    Pound May 28 1941 letter (not yet available in its full text..... , but very clearly referenced by Tovey May 31 answer) ?
    Roskill, Correlli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones historical judgement (all well convinced that the threat was actually there) ?
    Barnes answer to Tovey despatches, ADM 205/10 papers and War Cabinet minutes ?
    McMullen testimony in the interview (with Adm Blake present when Tovey accounted the threat) and
    Sir Henry Leach interpretation of the threat in a book about his father ?
    The intentional alteration of the facts in Tovey's report (but also in W-W, Leach, Ellis and subordinates' reports) ?
You should not really need also the "silver bullet" (that, once published, will close the debate forever, being a completely independent source for the "regrettable aftermath").

Not being willing to see the reality at any cost, is of course a totally different matter...... :negative:


you wrote: "There is no evidence W-W or Leach knew anything of the apocryphal threat in the rest of their short lives."
Not really. Leach and Wake-Walker official reports, contradicting their previous reports, declarations and interviews, prove beyond any doubt that they were well aware of the threat. :negative:
You have not answered my question: why did Tovey feel the need to underline to Pound that he was answering his private letter BEFORE seeing Leach and Wake-Walker ? A matter of tact ? :shock:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

Hello Alberto,
You have not answered my question: why did Tovey feel the need to underline to Pound that he was answering his private letter BEFORE seeing Leach and Wake-Walker ? A matter of tact
I thought I spelled it out for you. To allow Pound time to abandon his stupid idea of a sham Inquiry to appease Churchill without the potential victims having to worry or even know about the thought. Which he did.
All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:59 pm

Hi Sean,
my mistake, sorry. I missed twice your answer.... :oops:

Your idea makes sense, but it does not address why both Leach and Wake-Walker prepared their official reports as having been well aware of the threat, contradicting their previous declarations/messages and interviews..... :think:

I also don't agree with your definition of the "stupid idea of a sham inquiry".Stupid ? Sham ? As Dunmunro (Duncan) correctly wrote, it's really a pity that a very serious Board of Inquiry was not held.
Had such a due (based on evident facts) Inquiry been done, these officers could have had a chance of defending themselves versus all the aspects that blatantly "prima facie required explanation", instead of being decorated in October 1941, based only on the (proven) incorrect Tovey's despatches, and thanks only to the fact that Bismarck was sunk without any further loss.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:15 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
I see that at least you don't insist in your masochistic denial of the "thorough investigation" (that would have confirmed an explicit cover-up at the highest levels in the Royal Navy). :clap: Therefore you admit that there was an investigation, as per posted evidences. I hope you will not come back again in some days with the same incorrect statements..... :stop:


you wrote: "nobody denies Tovey believed his misrememberings. Why should he tell McMullen anything different to Roskill? So he's consistent"
the "misrememberings" have to be proven..... this is your problem because they are just your speculations.
Tovey letters are consistent, regarding the threat to Leach and W-W from 1941 till 1962, he was very lucid and reliable and the insinuations about his misremembering were clearly contradicted in writing by S.Roskill. :negative:

Are you really unable to see that the threat was actually there ? What do you need more than:
  • Tovey 1941 and 1961 letters (available in full text, both confirming the threat in milder or more tough words) ?
    Pound May 28 1941 letter (not yet available in its full text..... , but very clearly referenced by Tovey May 31 answer) ?
    Roskill, Correlli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones historical judgement (all well convinced that the threat was actually there) ?
    Barnes answer to Tovey despatches, ADM 205/10 papers and War Cabinet minutes ?
    McMullen testimony in the interview (with Adm Blake present when Tovey accounted the threat) and
    Sir Henry Leach interpretation of the threat in a book about his father ?
    The intentional alteration of the facts in Tovey's report (but also in W-W, Leach, Ellis and subordinates' reports) ?
You should not really need also the "silver bullet" (that, once published, will close the debate forever, being a completely independent source for the "regrettable aftermath").

Not being willing to see the reality at any cost, is of course a totally different matter...... :negative:


you wrote: "There is no evidence W-W or Leach knew anything of the apocryphal threat in the rest of their short lives."
Not really. Leach and Wake-Walker official reports, contradicting their previous reports, declarations and interviews, prove beyond any doubt that they were well aware of the threat. :negative:
You have not answered my question: why did Tovey feel the need to underline to Pound that he was answering his private letter BEFORE seeing Leach and Wake-Walker ? A matter of tact ? :shock:



Bye, Alberto
All we have established so far is that the Admiralty (DP) requested that Tovey conduct/request a BofI. The only mention of a CM comes from Tovey himself.

All the sources above are simply others repeating what Tovey has misstated.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:59 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "All we have established so far is that the Admiralty (DP) requested that Tovey conduct/request a BofI"
Hi Duncan,
we have established, thanks to the May 31 letter published her by Sean (Wadinga) that a serious scrutiny of the conduct of two officers was indeed requested by the Admiralty.
This is already a great step forward, as here many people seemed to be reluctant to admit that a severe criticism was circulating against them.

We have also established that Tovey was not affected by dementia (your word, for which I have not seen yet your excuses for having insinuated it :kaput: ) and that he was remembering very well about these criticisms and about the requests of disciplinary actions, put in writing by Pound in the letter as a Board of Inquiry.

We also have established that it was Tovey who stood up against the request (not only in the phone call, but also in writing with his May 31 letter), and also in this regard Tovey was perfectly consistent BOTH in 1941 AND in 1961. I don't see a single reason why he should be less reliable in relating the content of the phone call.... :negative:


Now, after having been cornered and forced to admit that you were wrong since the beginning when denying the "regrettable aftermath" of the Bismarck Operation, I see that you would like to try to quibble about the words "Court Martial" vs "Board of Inquiry" (when both would be more than enough to justify and to explain the subsequent alteration of facts in the official reports, btw). :negative:

I'm afraid however that you will have to bow to:
1) Tovey accounts (1961 letter + McMullen visit)
2) Historians judgement (all believing the Court Martial as being well in the "path of orthodoxy" of the Royal Navy)
3) Sir Henry Leach interpretation of the whole story in Wills book

You have to prove that "Tovey misstated" (???) anything about the Court Martial menaced during the phone call ! Good luck.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:34 am

Hello Alberto,

This statement from Duncan :
All we have established so far is that the Admiralty (DP) requested that Tovey conduct/request a BofI. The only mention of a CM comes from Tovey himself.
is almost completely correct. As we have established there is no need to consult Tovey at all. The Admiralty could order the dismissal of officers from their posts. They could order a B of I or a CM. The executive order for Somerville's B of I came from Alexander. It would appear the Pound letter of the 28th was a personal correspondence to Tovey from Pound and not an official Admiralty document. If it were an official Admiralty document it would be recorded. As both you and Antonio have pointed out a CM is an important matter and yet the request for one is not recorded. Or show me a Silver Bullet. :wink:

The only possible reason why Tovey's resistance should be at all effective is because there was no concern by him or Pound that these officers were substandard in their performance, and Pound only made a personal request for Tovey to allow a sham Inquiry merely to mollify Churchill. This assumes Churchill even remembered his Chequers rant by the 28th. Tovey refused to play ball as politics was not his game. He knew Pound's heavy burden, he knew who was actually responsible for the threat and he was not prepared to play ball to get his boss off the hook. In fact he put the ball firmly back in Pound's court by specifically telling him that he was confirming in writing he would take no action before he even spoke to W-W and Leach.

And Pound took no action. Phillips took no action. No action at all. No inquiry, no investigation. Not as much as into Dalrymple-Hamilton, not as much as into Holland.

If there actually had been any serious question over these officer's performance, Tovey's obstinacy would have been immaterial.

When we have all seen the full texts of the Tovey-Roskill letters then we will see the veracity of Tovey's memory. It is already clear he spent far more time and concern over an imaginary ROOF signal than over the apocryphal threat.

The great step forward has been to to see how weak Pound's promulgation of the threat really was. Put off in a few sentences from the C-in-C before he moved on to more interesting and pressing matters. We have already established that contrary to the writings of those authors who said the threat was the result of weeks of analysis, it was in fact born out of ill informed premature reaction and was completely dead and buried by the 30th or 31st May at the latest.

Since it was dead by then the fanciful speculation that some minor irrelevant and inconsequential revisions made to initial reports that you have dredged up constitute a "cover-up" are shown to be as insubstantial as they are.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:33 am

Wadinga wrote: "The great step forward has been to to see how weak Pound's promulgation of the threat really was."
Hi Sean,
I applauded sincerely your fairness publishing the May 31 letter from Tovey, but it looks like you are unable to see that it is already another "silver bullet" against your obstinate refusal of the "regrettable aftermath.... :think:

The letter confirms (if needed) that there was indeed a very severe criticism against both Leach and Wake-Walker and that a serious disciplinary action (please don't even try to say that a BofI is not such) was actually requested by the Admiralty to Tovey.
The letter confirms the full reliability of Tovey, who has not invented both the criticism and the disciplinary action (as you were saying up to few months ago.... :negative: ).
What you have posted also confirms that it was Tovey who refused to "obey" Pound request and stood up menacing his resignation in order to protect his subordinates, being consistent both in 1941 and in 1961 in his accounts.


I admire your resilience, but we have more than enough to publish the true story, supported of course by the judgement of the historians (Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones), by War Cabint minutes, by Barnes answer to Tovey despatches, by ADM 205/10 papers and subsequently confirmed by a very interested party, Sir Henry Leach clear interpretation + all is proven by the intentional alteration of the reports to close the matter.


you wrote: "the threat.....was in fact born out of ill informed premature reaction and was completely dead and buried by the 30th or 31st May at the latest. "
You are right ! The Court Martial / Board of Inquiry threat was dead by then, however the investigation to clarify the "aspects that prima facie required explanation" lasted until Churchill "Leave it" in September 1941.... It's evident from the papers, you only have to accept what is written, or prove that the papers are FALSE. :negative:


you wrote: :shock: "some minor irrelevant and inconsequential revisions made to initial reports" :shock:

Please be serious!
  • Adding 12 minutes fight to PoW (out of her fire action that lasted less than 10 minutes) with the 6:13 retreat time,
    inserting the jam of the Y turret (40% of PoW firing potential) BEFORE the disengagement decision,
    saying that the 2 cruisers, at around 15 sm, were unable to join the battle when they were (at 5:41) at 9 and 13sm,
    accepting a change of declaration from 10 sm to 15 sm for the Norfolk distance from Hood at 6:00,
    lightly "ignoring"/"justifying" the responsibilities of Wake-Walker for the refusal to re-engage and for the loss of contact
are NOT minor modifications: they are building a different story, a fairy tale instead of poor military actions.

This was the price Tovey (and the others) had to pay for the defence of the two officers.



Bye, Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:31 pm

@Antonio
Antonio Bonomi wrote: Do you believe that the Pound/Tovey phone call about the Board of Inquiry/Court Martial for Wake-Walker and Leach never happened ?
I don't know. The current state of source material is insufficient to answer this question.
Antonio Bonomi wrote: Do you believe that no " Cover Up " has been done in order to save and after reward them in October 1941 ?
Yes.
Antonio Bonomi wrote: Do you believe that this " Denmark Strait Saga ", as Sir Henry Leach called it, from May 24th, 1941 until October 14th, 1941 never occurred ?
It's a loaded question, please rephrase.
Regards

Marc

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:14 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr NIllson,

thanks for your response and providing me your current opinion.

1) I though that the latest provided letter of Adm Tovey dated May 31st, 1941 clearly referencing to it was going to remove any remaining doubt. Apparently it is not sufficient yet for you.

2) That was just a confirmation I was looking from your side.
The evidence of the intentional alteration of the reports ( Tovey May 30th report vs Tovey dispatches ) are all there for the ones that like to realize why they did it, ... just like the Hood second board called for Wake-Walker declaration change.

3) Given your responses above your position is clear.
I am with Sir Henry Leach on this one, ... and now I only have the doubt whether to use " The Denmark Strait Saga " definition for it or " The Denmark Strait regrettable aftermath " using the Stephen Roskill definition of it, ... but I have time to decide which one of the 2 I will use in the future for a book dedicated to it.

Now I can go back to my Tirpitz 1/100 model for the Tirpitz museum in Kaafjord ... :-)

Bye, Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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