The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Do you realise how trivial and quibbling that sounds?"
:lol: this is said by a person who was quibbling about what was the purpose of minutes and who was INCORRECTLY saying that minutes are detailed descriptions of the discussion. They are just SYNTHESIS, well understandable for everybody as they apparently were for Pound, Alexander and Churchill.... :negative:

Wadinga wrote: "You have not addressed why Pound's response ONLY relates to Leach, and not Wake-Walker."
Wrong !
Pound letter to Alexander includes intentionally Barnes position, that clearly addresses both Leach and Wake-Walker suspected under-performances.

Wadinga wrote: "Sadly we live in a cynical age...."
So cynical that the son of Capt.Leach, Sir Henry, former First Sea Lord, believed cynically (and blindly) to this monstrous conspiracy against his father! :negative:
"Sadly", it's Mr Wadinga who refuses to accept the reality and still tries to defend his imaginative version of the story, without presenting ANY PROOF.

Wadinga wrote: "Still waiting....."
He will wait, I'm still waiting for his excuses, having accused me to hide info.
Mr.Wadinga was aware of Roskill historical role and books much before we did and he had even seen ADM 205/10 papers, NEVER publishing them as they demonstrate how the "regrettable aftermath" went on and was closed only at the highest level. HE DID INTENTIONALLY HIDE INFO like the below ! :stop:
ADM205-10_333.jpg
ADM205-10_333.jpg (86.54 KiB) Viewed 1087 times

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
paul.mercer
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
As ever your breadth of Knowledge on naval affairs and the Bismarck event in particular is fantastic, of course there will always be subjects that even the best experts will fail to agree about and I fear that this is one of them. We are now heading towards 80 posts on this particular subject with no sign of any agreement. Do you think that we should now call time on this and just agree to disagree?
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Paul,

Tedious or otherwise as this ding-dong may be for others, it is true that important new material is being revealed............... or obviously held back, on this subject and a is valuable research work in progress on what actually happened in 1941.

The purpose of this discussion and several associated is either to convince readers that "a coupe of cowards" were identified by their actions by the senior cadre of the RN and their actions subsequently covered up or that two would-be "revelatory writers" have built a Ziggurat of Supposition relying on flimsy evidence based on a hazy recollection of an elderly officer.

We live in an age where access to the public ear for "false News" and spurious Conspiracy Theories has never been easier If you have opinions on the thread subject, please share them. Many have visited, contributed for a while, realised the unreasonability of those spinning this yarn, and after receiving a few minor insults departed, or maintained a watching brief to see what new developments may come forth. I am sadly less sensible.

We are all so very fortunate that Jose Rico hosts this enormous website, allowing forum discussions which vary from the serious factual, like this, to the unashamedly "fan" elements within various threads. Forum members can contribute or ignore, as takes their fancy.

Hello Alberto,

The minutes of meetings come in a variety of degrees of detail, however, things that are not mentioned at all, like any contemplation of any disciplinary action against certain officers can hardly be
well understandable for everybody
They are simply not there.

Wrong !
Pound letter to Alexander includes intentionally Barnes position
Pound's communication contains two elements, his content and a simple quote from another document. His content only concerns Leach, following what Brockman mistakenly surmised, and Barnes' quote includes both because two months earlier when Churchill's ire was maybe still active, Pound asked Barnes to lay praise on thickly. By the time Brockman contacted him Pound had clearly forgotten W-W was criticised at all. Not surprising since he still held both officers in high regard.
Capt.Leach, Sir Henry, former First Sea Lord, believed cynically
Since his father was actually given decorations by Pound, who was supposed in a 20 year old recollection to have wanted him Court Martialled, I expect Sir Henry took the pragmatic approach over "milk that was not even spilled". We have already discussed Sir Henry's own bullish attitude to Government interference in naval matters when he was First Sea Lord.
HE DID INTENTIONALLY HIDE INFO
Please calm yourself! There is no absolutely need for shouting. :angel: I gave you a
just SYNTHESIS, well understandable for everybody


early last year, of these trifling bureaucratic memos. The idea that the War Cabinet was still interested in the performance or alleged under-performance of two officers four whole months after the action is laughable. No wonder Alexander's memo was stamped on by Churchill's underling. W-W and Leach was a sideline to Denmark Straits which was a sideline to the Bismarck affair, which was sideline to Crete, which was a sideline to the conduct of the War, which was a factor the running of the UK.

This year I have given you the 31st letter with its clear denial of a Court Martial threat, only Board of Inquiry, never before quoted by any authority, whilst you still withhold the 1962 letter to Roskill. The Unaligned, like Paul, can judge who is being free and fair with information and who is withholding with a view to publishing this scurrilous attack .

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Paul Mercer wrote: " Do you think that we should now call time on this and just agree to disagree?"
Hi Paul,
yes I do agree. The only way to stop this useless discussion, where available written evidences and documents (e.g. ADM 205/10) are "countered" by personal speculations and interpretations only, is to agree that we will disagree forever.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
.... Minutes are a synthesis, not all words are recorded especially if "delicate" like "PoW broke off engagement with BS". ......

Bye, Alberto



NO ! You MUST remember this is the Civil Service. "Minutes of Meetings" are there a precis of what happened and what was agreed. They were, in essence, the official record to be relied upon in any future correspondence.

"Notes of Meetings" are what you are referring to, they are just a summary and "SHOULD" not be regarded as the official be-all-and-end-all.

The Civil Service, Armed Services and businesses of the 1940's understood the differences (and some organisations still do).

.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Q.E.D.
pgollin wrote: " "Minutes of Meetings" are there a precis of what happened "
Apparently on June 2nd, someone forgot the rule, as the "certain aspects" are not "listed" at all (but were very evident for everybody)....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
pgollin
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
.... The few " deniers " left on this forum .....


You are imagining things. The reason so few people post on these tedious threads are because your incredibly weird ideas on how the Royal Navy worked, how the British Government worked, and how people acted in the 1940s.

It is rather pointless posting if when people do they get a barrage of conspiracy theories, and re-writing of history.

In general I cannot be bothered. I occasionally post to put right some of the most egregious claims, but you sail on regardless, often repeating the same wrong claims. If you tried listening to posters, and learning how things actually were, maybe more people would get involved.

I admire Wadinga GREATLY for persevering in correcting your errors.

.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

pgollin wrote: "I admire Wadinga GREATLY....."
What a surprise ! Mr.pgollin confirms he loves Mr.Wadinga's own personal speculations ! :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Paul Mercer,

now it is simply enough to read the British Historian books in the proper way and the related Official documents they are referring to.

Of course a really interested person can read also the personal letters they preserved for historical researches on their archives.

Among all, I personally think that Stephen Roskill ( the Royal navy Official Historian for WW2 ) and Sir Henry Leach ( Capt Leach son and a former Royal Navy First Sea Lord ) declarations about this " regrettable aftermath " are more than enough to explain it all.

Enough said ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Mr Gollin,

Thank you for your expression of support. Along with those of Alan Raven, Cag, Dunmunro and several others I value it greatly.


You are of course correct about Civil Service procedure. It would have been helpful if the War Cabinet material had been specific, since A & A seize every opportunity to insert their speculations into the slightest chink in the continuity of reality. I imagine the minutes were unspecific because Pound's interim report was far too premature for any conclusions to be drawn. The War Cabinet secretary who contacted Brockman wasn't too bothered whether a report on anything would be submitted.
They were, in essence, the official record to be relied upon in any future correspondence.


Tired, overstressed people required records of events they could refer to, rather than relying on memory. A pity Tovey was not able to do so in 1961!

I hope you will continue to:
occasionally post to put right some of the most egregious claims
Some find it disheartening.
It is rather pointless posting if when people do they get a barrage of conspiracy theories, and re-writing of history.
You left out the added insults, but as a robust poster yourself, I imagine they just ricochet off into oblivion as they do with me. :D

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Wadinga, great job.

I was certain from reading Roskill (especially) and Kennedy who both had access to the archives, that the whole basis for a CMDS would come down to Tovey's faulty memory and confirming this has finally laid this myth to rest. If Roskill had some documentary evidence for a CMDS threat he would have used it, but he couldn't because it doesn't exist and never did.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

Thanks again Wadinga,
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that i found this discussion tedious, I don't, in fact the more I read the more impressed I become of the knowledge displayed by all the participants, but it does seem that sometime we have very nearly the same debates almost crossing each other but on different parts of the forum., Sorry again for saying my bit!!
Paul
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Hello Mr Gollin......You left out the added insults, but as a robust poster yourself, I imagine they just ricochet off into oblivion"
No, the very first insults will not be forgotten (here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5830&start=45#p54913 ).
At that time, I had just joined this forum and I was totally horrified and disgusted by such a rudeness, confirmed in all subsequent discussions with this person.... :oops:
Now he will just get back all his insults (+ laughs, having even been wrong in his statements since the beginning). :lol:


Wadinga wrote: "Along with those of Alan Raven, Cag, Dunmunro and several others I value it greatly."
Mr Wadinga seems to be happy to stay in this (respectable) company, we prefer to stay with quite more authoritative people, like Tovey, McMullen, Pound, Alexander, Churchill, Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones, Tarrant , Henry Leach "and several others".
They have all written (or confirmed/declared, and their statements are all posted in this thread) about the "regrettable aftermath" of the Bismarck Operation. All evidences are still available in the official British archives, including Tovey's letters (1941 to 1962), McMullen IWM interview, the "ultimate" papers of ADM 205/10 (pag.331-334) and the clear War Cabinet Minutes and annexes (May 26 and June 2).


As Paul Mercer had correctly suggested, it would have been much wiser (for the ones overwhelmed by evidences) to just agree to disagree, instead of posting this deplorable "call to arms". :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

you are absolutely right !

Since the very beginning, ... well knowing I was going to put the light on this shameful event, .. the " deniers " reaction has been to insult , ... being sarcastic and ironic with the discovery we progressively made, ... while trying to minimize this " can of worms ", ... which is the typical reaction of the poorly educated persons left with no arguments to counter a well demonstrated fact somebody is presenting with associated evidence.

@ all,

Now there are just few of them left, ... one supporting the other on the useless attempt to try to hold on the false story somebody wrote in order to pass from a board of inquiry and subsequent almost sure court martial call, ... to a King medal rewarding for those 2 Officers with a debatable action conduct or retreating very fast once alone.

It is enough to go on this thread first page to read what Sir Henry Leach and McMullen stated about this " Denmark Strait Saga".
All they wrote or declared has been proved right and you very long and complete list of Royal Navy Senior Officers, together with the most important British Naval history writers do not leave any doubt for the forum readers.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:


Wadinga wrote: "Along with those of Alan Raven, Cag, Dunmunro and several others I value it greatly."
Mr Wadinga seems to be happy to stay in this (respectable) company, we prefer to stay with quite more authoritative people, like Tovey, McMullen, Pound, Alexander, Churchill, Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones, Tarrant , Henry Leach "and several others".
They have all written (or confirmed/declared, and their statements are all posted in this thread) about the "regrettable aftermath" of the Bismarck Operation. All evidences are still available in the official British archives, including Tovey's letters (1941 to 1962), McMullen IWM interview, the "ultimate" papers of ADM 205/10 (pag.331-334) and the clear War Cabinet Minutes and annexes (May 26 and June 2).


As Paul Mercer had correctly suggested, it would have been much wiser (for the ones overwhelmed by evidences) to just agree to disagree, instead of posting this deplorable "call to arms". :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Fortunately, your efforts along with Antonio's and Wadinga's have pinned down the fact that all the above sources ultimately were influenced by false information via Tovey' s letters. Churchill never mentions a CMDS nor does Pound.
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