The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

[dunmunro]

There was nothing in ADM205/10 that supports Tovey's claim of a CMDS attempt by the Admiralty.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Dunmunro wrote: "There was nothing in ADM205/10 that support's Tovey's claim of a CMDS attempt by the Admiralty"

Hi Duncan,
ah ok, you don't speak about the well proved "regrettable aftermath" (that you therefore accept as a fact) but you ONLY quibble about the specific disciplinary initiative foreseen: Court Martial, Board of Inquiry or just a "thorough investigation" as is clearly written in ADM 205/10......

However, I wonder what could have been (in your opinion) the outcome of the story in case of a proven improper "breaking off engagement with the Bismarck" (ADM 205/10) as a result of this thorough investigation (instead of the Barnes conclusions)......
IMHO in this case a Court Martial was just the logic consequence, therefore such a threat was just logical.


Roskill clearly understood that the consequences of the menace of CM (or BofI) were clearly written in ADM 205/10.... apparently you and Mr.Wadinga don't want to trust Roskill. My suggestion is: please write your own book countering Roskill's conclusions.


Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Dunmunro,

How true.

What is bizarre is the repetitive denigration of "Pursuit" a book which Davies, who was present in the Ops room, apparently endorsed.

Kennedy's novel, full of heroes, honorable decisions and consensus from British side

since only his exposure of the CMDS story, which for instance, Roskill did not write about after Tovey told him about it in 1961, doing nothing about it for over a decade, will enable them to garner the recognition and accolades for which they hope.

I would have thought our bloodhounds would have wanted to record their untrammelled admiration for Kennedy in bravely exposing the whole story and giving them the impetus to fabricate their understanding of this huge conspiracy.

I thought they were far more appalled by Will's hagiography of John Catterall Leach, who one of them has categorised as a "coward", but instead they quote from it as a reliable source.

I'm still confused. Maybe when we see the text with annotations of the 1962 Tovey-Roskill letter we'll realise why Kennedy who broke the story is unreliable and Roskill who didn't.............. is.

All the best

wadinga

[dunmunro]

Naval historians Al Capone and Elliot Ness clashed repeatedly on this topic in an increasingly bitter dispute with Ness claiming a conspiracy theory, which Capone vigorously denied due to a lack of documentary evidence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnK0YPKiVkY

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

the " deniers " end, ... joining Bob Winklareth and Vic Dale, ... on the looser side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690

How sad it is to see how deep some persons are able to fall down on their dignity when left with no arguments and cornered by the evidence.

The only thing they can do apparently is to try to become ironic or sarcastic and try to make offensive statements to start a personal fight having obviously lost the discussion in a very evident way.

You are going nowhere, ... you are sinking in your own mud, ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

It's straightforward question:

Do you support Kennedy who published the CMDS story or Roskill who hid it for ten years?



All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "How sad it is to see how deep some persons are able to fall down on their dignity when left with no arguments and cornered by the evidence.
The only thing they can do apparently is to try to become ironic or sarcastic and try to make offensive statements to start a personal fight having obviously lost the discussion in a very evident way. "

Enough has already been demonstrated, let's them trust their 75+ years old fairy tale, instead of evaluating historical evidences, if they like to do so.


Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

No according to the " deniers " absolutely No ! ... it is just like the cupcake that this boy did not eat at all, ... NO !

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/ ... 7892291918

Of course they are right ... just like the little boy above, ...

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello Dunmunro,

How true.

What is bizarre is the repetitive denigration of "Pursuit" a book which Davies, who was present in the Ops room, apparently endorsed.

Kennedy's novel, full of heroes, honorable decisions and consensus from British side

since only his exposure of the CMDS story, which for instance, Roskill did not write about after Tovey told him about it in 1961, doing nothing about it for over a decade, will enable them to garner the recognition and accolades for which they hope.

I would have thought our bloodhounds would have wanted to record their untrammelled admiration for Kennedy in bravely exposing the whole story and giving them the impetus to fabricate their understanding of this huge conspiracy.

I thought they were far more appalled by Will's hagiography of John Catterall Leach, who one of them has categorised as a "coward", but instead they quote from it as a reliable source.

I'm still confused. Maybe when we see the text with annotations of the 1962 Tovey-Roskill letter we'll realise why Kennedy who broke the story is unreliable and Roskill who didn't.............. is.

All the best

wadinga

I am surprised as well.

The world turned upside down.

Tovey is claimed to be reliable in later life so that he can be hanged as a criminal conspirator while CinC Home Fleet. John Leach's biography, which praises his bravery and sterling character, is used to try and prove him to be a pathetic coward.

Even poor Lutjens the victor of DS, is held up as a vacillating trembler...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Dunmunro wrote: "The world turned upside down."

How true !

Insinuations (memory failures and.... dementia) are considered more reliable than written statements, crazy speculations (secretaries misleading the bosses....) more than official British documents (ADM 205/10).
The deniers at any cost (who had already tried to counter geometry before giving up, without admitting their failure......) would like to appear here more knowledgeable than professional historians.


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

But the professional historians (and Admiral Leach and Admiral Tovey) are all criticising Pound and not Leach and Wake-Walker, aren't they?

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Marc,
I fully agree with you.

The "regrettable aftermath" is now well proved and did happen.

The judgement of the military conduct may differ (several officers approved at the very time of events, Pound, Phillips and Churchill didn't, at least until the "official version" from Tovey was adopted by everybody, the historians and Sir Henry approved, mainly based on the "official version" that "went to the printers") but this judgement is a matter of personal evaluation.

Only a serious Inquiry over their conduct would have possibly clarified things (like in Somerville or Troubridge cases), but another decision was taken.


Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you are hitting the nail in the head and perfectly analyzing the situation.

Reading back on this thread in fact one can realize that I wrote several times that the problems was the very strong discipline conduct associated to the " relentless search for any failure " and the easy way to ask for a Board of Inquiry/trial for Court Martial by Adm Pound.

This is the reason why I called the first thread about this story on May 2013 " Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War ".

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5830

Everything started from that strong discipline and very high profile demanding approach in place to judge the Royal Navy Officers conduct while in action, and this strong Admiralty approach was felt very much by any RN Officer during World War 2.

Stephen Roskill and Graham Rhys-Jones for example are very clear explaining this Admiralty approach on their books.

The fact that this " regrettable aftermath " occurred cannot be discussed anymore by anybody given what we have now at hand into the Official documents.
Everybody must agree about it, no deniers possibility can be considered anymore.

Once this is assumed and considered out of any future discussion we can share our personal opinions about what could or should have been the outcome of that Board of Inquiry -> trial for Court Martial that never occurred.

Anybody can think that it was correct or not correct to even think about an Admiralty board of inquiry request for those 2 Officers, ... and your last post example underlines the main historians and Adm Leach / Tovey positions about this point.

Anybody can think about what could or should have been the outcome of that board of inquiry in case it was called.

Alberto properly listed the main positions of the various personalities involved, I have my personal opinion about it and everybody is entitled to have his own opinion of course.

What cannot be discussed or denied any longer is the fact that on May 1941 Adm Pound requested this type of action for those 2 Royal Navy Officers to Adm Tovey that refused to do it and soon after the initiative was abandoned.
This cannot be put in discussion anymore.

Keeping on writing that this occurrence was invented by Adm Tovey in his late life is not acceptable any longer in a serious discussion and I personally consider it a provocative initiative.

I hope that my reasoning is clear enough and that everybody will finally agree with my analysis, restoring a fair discussion conduct in this forum about this argument.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

Since Antonio is off trawling You Tube here's the question for you

It's straightforward question:

Do you support Kennedy who published the CMDS story or Roskill who hid it for ten years?

Kennedy or Roskill?

" relentless search for any failure "/ very strong discipline conduct/high profile demanding approach in place to judge

"I insist you have B of I on W-W and Leach"......."No"......."Oh, OK then, I'll give them medals instead and let them keep their jobs, errr, falsify a lot of evidence to make them look good, would you?".

Instantaneous relenting!

What cannot be discussed or denied any longer is the fact that on May 1941 Adm Pound requested this type of action for those 2 Royal Navy Officers to Adm Tovey that refused to do it and soon after the initiative was abandoned.

How true!

But even Antonio has to fudge the description now, because he knows Tovey's allegation was not true.

and the easy way to ask for a Board of Inquiry/trial for Court Martial

Clear admission that there was no threat of Court Martial on 30/31st May 1941 for these officers, and that Tovey's recollection 20 years later was incorrect as Paffard knew, having been party to the truth in 1941.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "Keeping on writing that this occurrence was invented by Adm Tovey in his late life is not acceptable any longer in a serious discussion and I personally consider it a provocative initiative."

Wadinga wrote: "Tovey's recollection 20 years later was incorrect"

Q.E.D.

No arguments/evidences anymore, just speculations...... Roskill advised Kennedy NOT to trust these insinuations but the great novelist couldn't resist......

Roskill to Kennedy_13-09-1973.jpg (84.45 KiB) Viewed 956 times

Bye, Alberto