The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I absolutely agree with you.

But I think it is obvious that to deserve to be highlighted in a formal letter of recommendations between Adm Tovey and Adm Pound, it must have been something that Adm Pound knew well and had already probably mentioned to Adm Tovey, and not being so positively judged by Adm Pound of course in relation to Wake-Walker, ... and this is the only reason for Adm Tovey to relate to it in writings.

I am particularly satisfied to have immediately noticed that May 28th BBC speech by Wake-Walker was not so " military perfect ", ... and when I found this letter you can imagine my personal satisfaction on reading Adm Tovey words to Adm Pound. :wink:

Of course we do not need to mention the 20.000 vs 30.000 yds declarations at the Hood boards, ... and all related actions taken.

But again, this is just another finding among the many all going in the same direction, confirming this story and just providing more details about it.

What counts are the May 31st, 1941 letter from Tovey to Pound ( and the still missed Pound May 28th letter to Tovey ) and the letters from Tovey to Stephen Roskill with the whole detailed explanation of it.

What count is Stephen Roskill confirmation even after Sir Kennedy book and the first disclosure of it and his correlation to the ADM 205/10, to the Admiralty, to Sir Alexander and finally to Sir Winston Churchill, ... and last but not least, Sir Henry Leach confirmation of this story related to his father, ... from his First Sea Lord position competence.

Finding Adm Pound May 28th, 1941 original letter will reveal more details about it, ... even if the whole scenario thanking Adm Tovey is clear enough already.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

now I think is the right moment to evaluate what Graham Rhys-Jones stated on his book at page 228.

Graham_Rhys-Jones_page_228_part_1.jpeg
Graham_Rhys-Jones_page_228_part_1.jpeg (81.1 KiB) Viewed 1102 times
Graham_Rhys-Jones_page_228_part_2.jpeg
Graham_Rhys-Jones_page_228_part_2.jpeg (70.28 KiB) Viewed 1102 times

Especially when he wrote :
But was it the whole truth ? The obsessive focus on individual conduct ...
Well, this all " regrettable aftermath " of this Denmark Strait Saga " just highlights that, ... the obsessive focus on individual conduct ... being the state of the art on that period, ... but one cannot pretend everybody to be a Warburton-Lee ( recently read a book by A. Jacobsen ), ... a Glasfurd, ... or a Roope.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Please read "set guard on his tongue" and in particular "emphatically" in context of:
ToveyWW.jpg
ToveyWW.jpg (51.01 KiB) Viewed 1098 times
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
pgollin
Senior Member
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:07 am
..... Tovey_about_WW_declarations.jpg

It does not take much to realize that Adm Tovey was referening to some declarations released by Wake-Walker that needed a " guard on his tongue " :

locking_unlocking_tongue.jpg

.......



I really don't know how you are mis-reading the comment on Wake-Walker, makbe you just aren't very good with English, or maybe you are just being devious.

When Tovey writes ;

"... but there is no doubt that like myself he talks emphatically which sometimes give an unfortunate impression ..."

he is comparing WW to himself - he is like Tovey (which, obviously, Tovey likes even if there are consequences). It shows he knows the officer and is willing to appoint him.


Your idea that somehow Tovey admiring WW is criticism is just, plain, wrong.


.
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
What counts are the May 31st, 1941 letter from Tovey to Pound
What count is Stephen Roskill confirmation
Finding Adm Pound May 28th, 1941 original letter will reveal more details about it
What would count and would reveal more details is you delivering, without delay, your so-called "Silver Bullet" no cheesy graphics, please. You claim you have had for some time irrefutable and unanswerable evidence in your possession which you have showed to your co-author, and yet keep from examination by other interested parties. This is supposed to be independent from the only current source, Tovey's hazy memories of 10-20 years after the event. You claim you want the 28th letter to be found, yet withhold the material you already have, which is supposed to render it superfluous.

Since both Tovey's letters shown so far demolish your contentions, you must be fervently hoping the 28th letter does not emerge too. It will almost certainly confirm no Court Martial threat, and no prejudice against Wake-Walker that would stop him commanding the Petsamo raid,
or being an approved candidate for Third Lord as Tovey suggests, only 3 months later.

Emergence of yet another piece of original 1941 material disproving your contentious Conspiracy Theory would surely prove fatal for your chances of monetizing the fact-free defamation of Wake-Walker and Leach.
among the many all going in the same direction, confirming this story


Nobody has confirmed this story, because whether they are McMullen or Tarrant or Brodhurst, merely repeating what Tovey said is not confirming it.

Given that his biased and inaccurate book, The Destruction of PQ 17 was the subject of a major libel trial in the UK Courts which found against the author, David Irving, and for the wronged naval officer, Jack Broome, it would be interesting to know what you have written about the action in your latest book. When the trial concluded in 1970, Broome was awarded £40,000 in compensatory and exemplary damages, plus costs. At that time, this figure represented the highest damages ever awarded in British legal history.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

too easy to read a post events statement by Adm Tovey that basically repeated what he wrote to Adm Pound with an evident very different meaning on September 1941, ... surely not for being sarcastic on his released statements.

Never forget that after having "saved " him, Adm Tovey and RearAdm Wake-Walker had to cooperate on making the necessary " Cover Up " of the events before the rewarding, ... so not a surprise to read the above statements on 1942.

Stating that he knew BC1 was near soon after 5 am that morning ( and thanking your found BBC Interview we can all listen to him now ) and doing nothing is not being emphatic or sarcastic, ... is just being superficial and full of yourself with your brain not fully engaged, ... not being sarcastic or emphatic.

You would agree that there is not any sarcastic or emphatic verbal attitude on declaring and signing in front to a Board of Inquiry that you were at firing range from the enemy when a battle was on going and you still were doing nothing at all while the HMS Prince of Wales was under the enemy fire, ... you were just signing for a Court Martial against you and in fact ... it needed to be immediately changed. How would you define this attitude ?

In my opinion this is not being emphatic or sarcastic, ... only speaking emphatically or sarcastically, ... is just having a " suicidal attitude " in war time given the Articles of War in place, ... or worst is just thinking that despite all you state or sign, ... you are risking nothing at all no matter what.

I am more in line with Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Roland Charles Backhouse GCB, GCVO, CMG military evaluations when he wrote about Wake-Walker personal characteristics as an Officer, ... and I am sure you have them too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Backhouse

He was able to describe perfectly this Officer, ... and the events occurred after just confirmed his military evaluations.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Well, it's much more interesting how Admiral MacKinnon changed his opinion.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I assume you are referring to this :
In February, 1932, Mackinnon issued an adverse report on his executive officer, Commander F. R. Baxter in Hermes in which he criticized Baxter's social grace and excessive self-regard. Mackinnon was informed that Their Lordships did not concur.
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/i ... _Mackinnon

I am not aware of Their Lordships not concurrence to Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Backhouse GCB, GCVO, CMG evaluations ( aloof by nature, not broadminded, strongly self-opiniated -> = disappointing impression ), related to Capt W.F. Wake-Walker on April 10th, 1938. Are you ?

What I am aware of is Their Lordships severe displeasure conveyed to RearAdm Wake-Walker performance in relation to the HMS Achates damages ( July 25th, 1941 ) with a December 20th, 1941 Admiralty letter 19520/41 to be noted in his records.

Still few months after he was " promoted " ... and this seems to confirm my opinion of :
... Promoveatur ut amoveatur ...
... as it is obvious that in the Third Sea Lord position he was not anymore going to be a " problem " during the operations.

I avoid to comment on the last promotions because that is really ... ridicolous, ... never saw a POST MORTEM promotion like that on any country or armed forces that I can remind of, ... and this additionally confirms his " high wheels " position and relations ( sponsors ).

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Backhouse wasn't Wake-Walkers immediate superior, but MacKinnon (commander of the 2nd battle squadron). Both wrote a interim testimonial after not even 3 month. Backhouse admited that he hasn't seen much of WW, because "this officer has been only a short time in the home fleet with me". MacKinnon even wrote "I have not discover any outstanding qualities in this officer".

So far so bad


...but MacKinnon wrote a second testimonial in January 1939. This testimonial speeks of a "very capable Captain" and seems to be much better.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

From the last time a load of irrelevant guff about Admiral Backhouse was raised (Sept 2017)
Roger Backhouse as Pound's predecessor (as 1st Sea Lord- also died of a brain tumour ) features large in Robin Brodhurst's Churchill's Anchor which I thoroughly recommend for purchase. He says this of your favourite personnel assessor: "When C-in-C of the Home Fleet he was an even worse centralizer than Pound, and his chief of staff, Bertie Ramsay one of the Royal Navy's most gifted officers, remonstrated with him. Ramsay was told by Backhouse that he could not change his habits and, if he didn't like them he (Ramsay) had better go. Ramsay resigned and was placed on the retired list. Happily he was recalled by Pound in September 1939 as Vice-Admiral, Dover......." Errr, yes that is the Bertie Ramsay who masterminded, along with his trusted at-sea representative Frederic Wake-Walker, the successful extraction of the BEF from the jaws of Doom at Dunkirk. And later went on to mastermind Operation Neptune the naval element of Overlord using the landing craft his trusted former subordinate had overseen the construction of.

So I think we can all safely forget all about Roger Backhouse's assessment (do you agree?), unless someone discovers he was a actually a Nazi mole trying to destroy the careers of not one, but two of the Royal Navy's most outstanding WWII officers

I can also locate one Antonio Bonomi from this very thread saying
but I remember we agreed among ourselves not to dig anymore into his past actions,
the trenchant judgement of Adm R.Backhouse in his personal record (1938), ..... I hope you still agree to leave his curriculum apart and to speak ONLY about the Bismarck operation !

All this smokescreen is allowing Antonio to evade the question.

Antonio,

Why do you refuse to disclose the "Silver Bullet"?

You claim to have information which makes the May 28th letter superfluous, to have had it for several months and to have shared it with your co-author. You claim it provides independent confirmation and corroboration of your Conspiracy Theory.

Does it exist, or is it a huge bluff to buy some time whilst you continue to peddle this fantasy? No more pretty pictures or stuff about people being irritated. They are not irritated, they are bored.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

well, that explains the whole things, ... as always happened as far as I can see with this Officer so very highly " sponsored ".

An evident failure, ... or an evaluation criticism, ... and soon after everything cancelled, ... and a prompt promotion.

In my personal opinion reading Adm Backhouse evaluation you can clearly see the Officer personality that we can listen on the BBC interview and in front of the Hood board of inquiry, ... it is just a perfect description of that Officer.

Capt Ellis autobiography provides some more details of him too, and of his " admirable " performances during the Bismarck chase, ... :wink:

Those photos can help too ... realizing the sponsors relationship, ... before and after ...

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205153973

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205153974

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205153975

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/558376053773269179/

https://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/news- ... id78962754

... a direct relation thru that engagement and wedding with the Spencer family :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_family

Surely he was not a common Royal Navy Rear Admiral, ... both for his " heavy "last name, ... as well as for his relations ... and it showed up clearly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Wake_Walker

You can read it thru Adm Tovey letters very clearly, ... especially when associated to the word Court Martial, ... very carefully managing his name with S. Roskill, even after he died , ... and often calling it the " Wake-Walker business ", ... :wink:

Still the POST MORTEM promotion I think remains UNIQUE in the world, being a confirmation of the above :
AD PERPETUAM REI MEMORIAM


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

Please stop ejecting Pillenwerfers and fire the damned G7es torpedo!

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

wadinga wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm Hello Antonio,

Please stop ejecting Pillenwerfers and fire the damned G7es torpedo!

All the best

wadinga
Yes, we're getting a bit tired of A&A's sudden reliance on secondary sources.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

As we are fed up of D&S petulant denials of FACTS (not accepted) and PRIMARY SOURCES[/b] (considered "memories of poor old sailors") ! :lol:

In case someone has forgotten (or removed as being inconvenient :wink:) here the list of all the evidences already available for the threat (Pound May 28 letter full text and/or the "Silver Bullet") are not really needed.

Threat_Evidences.jpg
Threat_Evidences.jpg (81.43 KiB) Viewed 1411 times

If someone still refuses to accept it, it's his own problem ONLY


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@Antonio

Connecting a 1944 wedding with a decoration in 1941 seems abstruse to me. It's so abstruse that one could think it's really a dead cat strategy. However, I know (or at least strongly believe) you are serious about that and therefore I don't want to impute that you are using red herrings to distract us from the gist of the matter.

So what about your silver bullet?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Locked