The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:13 pm

For war propaganada reasons it was decided to : LEAVE IT ! ( Cit. Sir W. Churchill )

The RN did censure RN officers during WW2 over their conduct in battle.

Churchill did write "leave it" but he didn't do it for war propaganda purposes, unless the UK was publishing their war cabinet minutes...which they weren't. And RN despatches were also secret until after the war.

If Leach was in disfavour then he could have been retained on medical leave, for example, and refused further seagoing commands. While W-W could have been moved to a shore based position, by TLs at the stroke of a pen.

You keep making these claims regarding war propaganda and then hope that readers of the forum don't realize that most of what is being discussed was covered by the Official Secrets Act and was not made public.
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

since somebody does have problem with his eyes, ... and cannot see well those : " so little evidence ".

I write them a bit bigger, so he can see them better.


for Capt Leach/PoW : 06:03 vs 06:13 retreat time - Y turret jamming moved in before the retreat

for Wake-Walker : 20.000 vs 30.000 yards from Hood at 06:00 - The Plot - his report with the 06:03 -> 06:13 invention

for Capt Ellis : his report when compared to his own autobiography declarations

for Adm Tovey : his dispatches regarding Leach and Wake-Walker points - his changed first report of May 30th, 1941

for Adm Pound/Sir Alexander : Admiralty minute signed by Sir Barnes accepting Adm Tovey dispatches - the ADM 205/10 331 to 334 pages content

for Winston Churchill : from Troubridge to -> LEAVE IT ! and the whole change of evidence acceptance

Remember, ... all the above evidence are available into original Official documents and report into the UK archives.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:39 pm Hello everybody,

to make a long story short, ...

A coward Captain retreated his battleship while fully engaged after only 1 minute fighting on alone after having received the first hit on board, with a still perfectly efficient warship he had previously been engaging the enemy and just only because he was afraid of what it might could have happened to her and her guns that on that moment were perfectly working.

A surely negligent/coward too RearAdmiral did not engage at first despite a similar unit was engaging on the enemy side, did not help opening fire his retiring warship when remained alone despite being at firing range and once the Admiralty asked him to do what was expected from him now in command, ... so to re-engage the enemy, ... he found all sort of excuses not to do it, ... especially explaining the need to do his shadowing job, with the final result to loose the enemy soon after.

Surely they were fully deserving a Board of Inquiry and most likely they were going to face a Court Martial after.

In reality after some " intentional report adjustments " blessed by their Admiralty and Politicians, those 2 " champions " received a medal from the King.

The ADM 205/10 tells the whole connections at high level driving those facts until the closure, just as Stephen Roskill explained us.

Nothing even close to this Officer conduct :
* For gallantry, enterprise and daring in command of the force engaged in the First Battle of Narvik, on 10th April, 1940. On being ordered to carry out an attack on Narvik, Captain Warburton-Lee learned that the enemy was holding the place in much greater force than had been thought. He signalled to the Admiralty that six German destroyers and one submarine were there, that the channel might be mined, and that he intended to attack at dawn. The Admiralty replied that he alone could judge whether to attack, and that whatever decision he made would have full support. Captain Warburton-Lee led his flotilla of five destroyers up the fjord in heavy snow-storms, arriving off Narvik just after daybreak. He took the enemy completely by surprise and made three successful attacks on warships and merchantmen in the harbour. As the flotilla withdrew, five enemy destroyers of superior gunpower were encountered and engaged. The Captain was mortally wounded by a shell which hit the bridge of H.M.S. Hardy. His last signal was "Continue to engage the enemy".
Bye Antonio
At least we can now drop the pretense of you pretending to be an impartial historian.


Captain Warburton-Lee was a gallant and extremely brave officer. OTOH, he was commanding destroyers, of which the RN had a ~10-1 superiority in numbers over the KM. Also Warburton-Lee's flotilla did retreat, didn't they? Even your quoted (but unsourced) statement above says that. The RN achieved surprise, did what damage they could and then retreated (by Captain Warburton-Lee's orders) when the tactical situation demanded it. The RN then returned with overwhelming force and annihilated the KM ships.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Dunmunro wrote: "At least we can now drop the pretense of you pretending to be an impartial historian"
When Mr.Dunmunro (and some other ones here....) will drop his ridiculous pretense of being impartial at all ? :think:

What Antonio listed are proven FACTS + his own personal judgement of the behavior of a couple officers who turned away from the enemy.... anyone is free to still like the behavior of Leach and Wake-Walker or (as I do) dislike it very much, but reality cannot be denied only because someone is obstinate in thinking that no coward could have worn the uniform of the Royal Navy.... :negative:

Dunmunro wrote: "Captain Warburton-Lee was a gallant and extremely brave officer. OTOH, he was commanding destroyers, of which the RN had a ~10-1 superiority in numbers over the KM."
Of battleships, the RN had a superiority (I think to remember, at that stage of the war) of 13-1 in numbers over the KM :lol: :lol: :lol:

Captain Warburton-Lee was a hero, Leach and Wake-Walker were NOT.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

funny to read by an " hooligan/denier " at any cost and against any overwhelming evidence an evaluation of somebody else not being impartial.

Now I like to see what else you " deniers " are going to invent to try to challenge the evidence at hand, ... since I have read almost every possible invention, ... trials for change of timings of every type, ... Hood flying on the water after the explosion, ... Bismarck being on the port side of Norfolk, ... original battle photos being taken on baltic sea training, ... etc etc ...

Of course all those invention trials were just impartial, .... of course.

Bye. Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
northcape
Senior Member
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:31 am

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape »

Of course it is a completely valid opinion to think that Leach & WW were cowards. It is as substantiated as the opinion that it is actually a huge irony to hear people associated with the Italian military blaming others for cowardice, incompetency, and for being not honest. In particular since this is happening in a comfortable chair in front of a computer in 2018. Both are just opinions, not facts, and others might like them or not. So I say, 'Just leave it' !
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Did you see what happened there?
I write them a bit bigger, so he can see them better.
We are talking about whether there was ever was a CMDS threat, which is now clearly unlikely, and when cornered and desperately reorganizing and back pedalling on the Conspiracy Theory blaming Churchill or Pound or Churchill and Pound or whatever, or whether it happened in May or perhaps September, suddenly we are back on the contentious "proofs" only in

shouty bold and bigger

letters.

When one should be freely deploying the supposedly unanswerable Silver Bullet, instead of trying to make people pay to see it, and also buy some defamatory hokum at the same time.

Whether Warburton-Lee was more or less heroic than Fegan or Kennedy or some unnamed, unmourned merchant navy man is irrelevant here. Whether your definition of the "instant" of retreat is the same as Tovey's or Wake-Walker's or indeed mine is also irrelevent.

How does the Silver Bullet confirm CMDS? :D

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

once left with no arguments, ... here we go to the nationalism and the fact that somebody won the last war and somebody lost it, ... and consequently in this very limited mind, ... that authorize the winner to stay " on top " of somebody else :negative: .

It is too evident that it is the major reason for this " hooligan/deniers " type of approach to this historical re-construction.

Such a way to think does not even belong to children anymore, ... and it is against this forum rules I recommend somebody to read carefully.

Cowardice does not have a country or a side, ... as we have seen by analyzing this battle, ... were it is very evident and mostly documented from the military stand point.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:35 pm
Of battleships, the RN had a superiority (I think to remember, at that stage of the war) of 13-1 in numbers over the KM :lol: :lol: :lol:



Bye, Alberto
The RN had 15 battleships in commission as of ~0558 24 May 1941. Only 4 of these, PoW, KGV, Renown and Repulse could do 28 knots or better, with 7 being 22-24 knots and 4 that could barely do 20. The KM had 4 battleships in commission as of ~0558 24 May 1941, all capable of 28 knots or better and two 26 knot pocket battleships. The RMI had 5 battleships in commission on that date , all capable of 26 knots or better. The IJN, although not yet in the war had 10 battleships in commission with 6 being 25 knots or faster. The RN was, in fact, out matched, at least on paper by the European Axis powers, fortunately the lethargy of the RMI kept the situation from becoming critical.

But of, of course, you knew all this when you posted another lie, above.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,

despite the attempt of Mr.Dunmunro to justify his false statement regarding the supremacy in number of the RN over the KM (these were his own words, and the destroyers of RMI and IJN, as well as their speed/armament were not taken into account by this guy :lol: ), back we are to the topic of the thread:
Wadinga wrote: "We are talking about whether there was ever was a CMDS threat, which is now clearly unlikely,"
Unfortunately for him the evidences of the threat to Leach and Wake-Walker are by now overwhelming

Threat_Evidences.jpg
Threat_Evidences.jpg (81.43 KiB) Viewed 812 times

the Court Martial menace was accounted by Tovey to Roskill for historical purposes during his visits to him and in his 1961 crystal clear letter: there is no reason at all (except in Mr.Wadinga unlimited fantasy) to doubt about it, as we have now even in writing the menace of the CM antechamber, the BofI into the conduct of two officers requested by Pound to Tovey, as per the May 31 letter.

No other evidence is needed to publish the whole story that will get crazy the RN hooligans....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:13 am Hello everybody,

despite the attempt of Mr.Dunmunro to justify his false statement regarding the supremacy in number of the RN over the KM (these were his own words, and the destroyers of RMI and IJN, as well as their speed/armament were not taken into account by this guy :lol: ), back we are to the topic of the thread:
Wadinga wrote: "We are talking about whether there was ever was a CMDS threat, which is now clearly unlikely,"
Unfortunately for him the evidences of the threat to Leach and Wake-Walker are by now overwhelming


Threat_Evidences.jpg


the Court Martial menace was accounted by Tovey to Roskill for historical purposes during his visits to him and in his 1961 crystal clear letter: there is no reason at all (except in Mr.Wadinga unlimited fantasy) to doubt about it, as we have now even in writing the menace of the CM antechamber, the BofI into the conduct of two officers requested by Pound to Tovey, as per the May 31 letter.

No other evidence is needed to publish the whole story that will get crazy the RN hooligans....


Bye, Alberto
A&A could have claimed the above sources as evidence of a CMDS threat... until we all got a look at the archives and Tovey's letters, which show that there was no CMDS threat. Now they claim that something was, when they know that it wasn't. Tovey told some tall tales in his dotage and unfortunately some historians got taken in by them, via secondary sources.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,

Mr Dunmunro above post is a VERY POOR explanation to counter the overwhelming evidences, starting from Tovey 1941 and 1961 clear letters + ADM 205/10 pag.331-334, that we have available in full and that do not leave any doubt to any reasonable person.

Threat_Evidences.jpg
Threat_Evidences.jpg (81.43 KiB) Viewed 882 times

All the first 6 lines of evidences are in the British official records, Admiralty files , Archives and published books (except line 2, at least for the time being... :wink: ). They were studied by all historians and fully trusted (with the only exception of Kennedy, who was no historian anyway) and even the son of Leach, Sir Henry was well convinced that his father had been menaced of Court Martial (IMO, as obvious, according to all the rules of the Royal Navy, that Sir Henry knew very well).

If this denier has any argument to counter all the above evidences for the threat, he is welcome to present them, avoiding however to mention, as he did already, Tovey's dementia :negative: , and also avoiding ridiculous fantasy explanations like Brockmann who misled Pound, Alexander and Churchill or Roskill's misuse of info, etc.etc. ending with his own last one: "Tovey told some tall tales in his dotage and unfortunately some historians got taken in by them"..... :lol:


The case is, unfortunately for the deniers (who were all happy to believe to the CM threat in the past...), closed since a while, but now they are very angry, because the CM menace has been clearly and logically linked to the subsequent alteration of reports and declaration (cover-up, the 7th line of evidences) that was discovered and demonstrated by Antonio's work.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
Adm Pound, the Admiralty and Sir Alexander, ... nothing can do rather than follow the new changing directions of their war leader on that moment, ... after the Bismarck was sunk.
This is the real reason why 2 cowards escaped what they fully deserved given the Articles of War in place, ... and got the rewarding instead
So now Churchill says on the 27th May "Don't bother to Court Martial them, because Bismarck is sunk, leave these "cowards" in command of important resources."

But then Pound writes to Tovey on the 28th that he wants a B of I. Why? The need is gone. Does he want to prosecute them even though Churchill doesn't? Because he thinks it's important to get rid of them? And then he drops it instantly when Tovey writes "under no circumstances" on the 31st. But then he and Tovey make up a huge Conspiracy involving changed reports, lying under oath, coercing juniors to lie etc even though Churchill isn't interested anymore?

Face it Antonio, your theories are dissolving into a chaotic mess, and changing them "on the fly" is making it worse.

Putting a black border around your six examples , not of evidence but opinions, is appropriate because you are announcing the death of the CMDS myth and and the collapse of your Ziggurat. :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

in such a confuse mental state that cannot anymore realize who is who :shock:

What about the geometry study ? Still struggling ?

As far as this thread goes, ... just leave it, ... is too complicated for you to understand it.

I suggest you to change pub, ... or better to drink just orange juice.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

If anyone is confused, it is you, about the who, what and when of your collapsing conspiracy theory, undermined by the fast-disappearing CMDS myth it is built on. If hearing about the Silver Bullet is going to have to wait until you shuffle this muddle-headed mess into book form, you will be taking the secret to your grave.

As Dunmunro has pointed out, since you now say everybody was "in on it" why bother to change things when nothing would be released for 100 years (latterly 30)? Just who was supposed to be fooled? The King?

Tovey's 1941 letter says B of I because he was writing to Pound who knew the truth. His 1961 letter says Court martial and was written to Roskill who did not know the truth, because he had never seen the 1941 letter. (he never quotes from it or refers to it.)

Roskill, Corelli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones all make an interpretation all quoting Kennedy as the source. They leave out his caveat and are thus slipshod and careless in my opinion. :D

Barnes praises Leach and W-W in one paragraph of fourteen. That does not confirm CMDS. No disciplinary measures at all are described in 205/10 or the Cabinet Minutes

McMullen merely repeats what Tovey told him. Everybody who has read a book mentioning CMDS is as valid a witness as McMullen. That is completely valueless.

Sir Henry Leach supplies no evidence at all, other than the interpretations he has read.

Since you have reposted a discredited box of interpretations and hearsay as evidence, here is a reminder of what Pound had these men do after he supposedly wanted them Court Martialled:


Both Leach and Wake-Walker stayed in their positions of trust and enormous responsibility, were not censured in any way by Pound, and so therefore the threat whatever it was, if it existed, was not followed through."

Wake-Walker:

"This operation EF involved an unsuccessful carrier raid commanded by W-W on Petsamo and motivated entirely for political reasons to support the newly-attacked USSR and lasting from 22nd July -4th August. 24 hour daylight and inadequate strike aircraft made failure a forgone conclusion but W-W did his best, receiving a stony silence when he went to commiserate with surviving aircrew in Victorious on return. However, orders are orders. Groping their way into Seidisfjord in fog meant risk had to be taken and Achates' dead were the price. I have yet to read the National Archive file on this, but their Lordships' opinion looks superficially like appalling hindsight and back-seat driving.

Contrary to any imaginary official unhappiness with his general performance after this, and now three whole months after Pound was supposed to have wanted him court-martialled W-W set off again with a twin carrier task force on operations Dervish and Strength again supplying support for the Russians around Murmansk. His covering force had the complex task of covering the Dervish convoy, the very first Russian convoy, and also the transfer of a flight of 24 RAF Hurricanes to North Russia, flown off the Argus. He fitted in some air strikes against German shipping in the Tromso area as well. These operations lasted from 19th August through to 10th September."

"A further accolade for Wake-Walker was that he was on the Parliamentary Committee, as expert advice, set up to investigate the loss of PoW and Repulse "Battleship" Middlebrook."

John Leach:

"Leach was in command of HMS Prince of Wales from commissioning until the day she sank apart from his hernia operation and convalescence, that is complete approval of his performance. If there had been any other opinion, another Captain would have been appointed."

"Except that Winston was full of praise and bonhomie when sailing with Leach to Placentia Bay five days after Brockman made his mistaken guess. Pound's green ink says I will take the C-in-C's report with me- where? Why on board PoW to America with Winston and Leach of course."

As a remembrance of his pleasant trip under Leach's protection, Winston sent him a signed photograph. It did not say "to the man who did the worst thing since Troubridge turned away from the Goeben in 1914"

The idea that this totally imaginary Conspiracy was created so the Bismarck's destruction could be presented as a "good news" PR stunt (not that wasn't wonderful news already) and solely so everybody could be dished out with medals has been laughable since the start. Whatever bits of ribbon these men got, they were fulfilling their positions of trust and responsibility from 24th May 1941 to the day of their deaths.



This evidence of recorded events, not opinions masquerading as evidence, make it clear that Sir Dudley Pound had complete faith in the abilities of these men. If the 28th May letter from Pound did request a Board of Inquiry IMHO it was purely to mollify the ill-informed, hasty and unfair outburst of WSC, and not because, as has been claimed "ADM 205/10 is stating that the PoW retreat was an aspect that had to be investigated" Only this explanation fits with Pound immediately abandoning the idea, and keeping these excellent officers in their posts of considerable responsibility.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
Locked