The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Moderator: Bill Jurens
- Alberto Virtuani
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- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
taking another look at this:http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... tia#p64709
anybody can reach his own conclusion about Mr.Dunmunro credibility compared to Tovey's one (certified by S.Roskill in an available and posted letter) and proven by ADM 205/10 (fully posted here several times).
Bye, Alberto
taking another look at this:http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... tia#p64709
anybody can reach his own conclusion about Mr.Dunmunro credibility compared to Tovey's one (certified by S.Roskill in an available and posted letter) and proven by ADM 205/10 (fully posted here several times).
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
Presumably the plan is to post as much old, discredited material so as to bury Mr Juren's demolition job on the Ziggurat of Supposition and pretend it never happened and all those additional posters didn't agree.
I'll help:
Tovey's 1941 letter says B of I because he was writing to Pound who knew the truth. His 1961 letter says Court martial and was written to Roskill who did not know the truth, because he had never seen the 1941 letter. (he never quotes from it or refers to it.)
Roskill, Corelli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones all make an interpretation all quoting Kennedy as the source. They leave out his caveat and are thus slipshod and careless in my opinion.
Barnes praises Leach and W-W in one paragraph of fourteen. That does not confirm CMDS. No disciplinary measures at all are described in 205/10 or the Cabinet Minutes
McMullen merely repeats what Tovey told him. Everybody who has read a book mentioning CMDS is as valid a witness as McMullen. That is completely valueless.
Sir Henry Leach supplies no evidence at all, other than the interpretations he has read.
Your "judges" are dead and can't change their minds, and they never saw the 31st May letter. Who knows what they would say if they saw the "Silver Bullet". Do we have to crowdfund a bribe to get you to show it?
All the best
wadinga
Presumably the plan is to post as much old, discredited material so as to bury Mr Juren's demolition job on the Ziggurat of Supposition and pretend it never happened and all those additional posters didn't agree.
I'll help:
Tovey's 1941 letter says B of I because he was writing to Pound who knew the truth. His 1961 letter says Court martial and was written to Roskill who did not know the truth, because he had never seen the 1941 letter. (he never quotes from it or refers to it.)
Roskill, Corelli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones all make an interpretation all quoting Kennedy as the source. They leave out his caveat and are thus slipshod and careless in my opinion.
Barnes praises Leach and W-W in one paragraph of fourteen. That does not confirm CMDS. No disciplinary measures at all are described in 205/10 or the Cabinet Minutes
McMullen merely repeats what Tovey told him. Everybody who has read a book mentioning CMDS is as valid a witness as McMullen. That is completely valueless.
Sir Henry Leach supplies no evidence at all, other than the interpretations he has read.
Your "judges" are dead and can't change their minds, and they never saw the 31st May letter. Who knows what they would say if they saw the "Silver Bullet". Do we have to crowdfund a bribe to get you to show it?
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
This is what we get when A/A's theory is rejected...just more trolling
- Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
Bye, Alberto
They trusted Tovey based solely on his 1961 memory, had they seen May 31, 1941 letter, any residual (even Kennedy's) doubt would have disappeared because Tovey invented NOTHING, the threat was done and countered by him.... who succeeded ONLY because Bismarck had been sunk.Wadinga wrote: "Your "judges" are dead and can't change their minds, and they never saw the 31st May letter"
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
- Antonio Bonomi
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- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
@ Alberto Virtuani,
we should be stopping the useless trial to convince this flock of sheep, ... they are only able to follow a shepherd, ... telling them what they hoped to read.
Now they have it and are happy, .... they restored the hope that maybe all this story was not true, ... and the Tovey letters to Pound and Roskill in reality never existed, ... same as for the ADM 205/10 pages 331 - 332 - 333 - 334 ...
They, as well as the shepherd, seems not able to realize that the documents demonstrating this very shameful event are still all there available into the archives cornering them to the truth, ... no matter which words the shepherd can release to them.
They only follow the generic hoped words now, ... maybe it was like this, ... maybe it was like that.
NO ! ... like it or not, ... it was the way the Official documents are telling us it was.
Bye Antonio
@ Alberto Virtuani,
we should be stopping the useless trial to convince this flock of sheep, ... they are only able to follow a shepherd, ... telling them what they hoped to read.
Now they have it and are happy, .... they restored the hope that maybe all this story was not true, ... and the Tovey letters to Pound and Roskill in reality never existed, ... same as for the ADM 205/10 pages 331 - 332 - 333 - 334 ...
They, as well as the shepherd, seems not able to realize that the documents demonstrating this very shameful event are still all there available into the archives cornering them to the truth, ... no matter which words the shepherd can release to them.
They only follow the generic hoped words now, ... maybe it was like this, ... maybe it was like that.
NO ! ... like it or not, ... it was the way the Official documents are telling us it was.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
I am confused. Exactly who is the shepherd to which you refer?
Surely you yourself could be the shepherd and begin to lead all out of the woods by telling us more about the 'silver bullet'.
Bill Jurens
Surely you yourself could be the shepherd and begin to lead all out of the woods by telling us more about the 'silver bullet'.
Bill Jurens
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Well, what does one more lie matter to a serial liar? Or is it again that our Italian friend does not know English well enough to understand what a testimony is?
- Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
quibbling over English words usage (what a poor approach, just being unable to counter facts... ) will not change that McMullen "interview" (date unknown) fully confirmed what Tovey had already told to Roskill during his visits between 1952 and 1960 and what he had (or would ) have written to the same Roskill in his 1961 letter, that explains, for the benefit of a reputed historian, what was behind the stage in this "saga".
After his 1941 letter surfaced (thanks to Mr.Wadinga ), confirming that the threat was actually done, NOBODY should be able to repeat what the novelist Kennedy inserted in his shameful footnote, insinuating Tovey's memory failures (already refuted by Roskill advise...), except someone wanting to make a fool of himself.
Bye, Alberto
quibbling over English words usage (what a poor approach, just being unable to counter facts... ) will not change that McMullen "interview" (date unknown) fully confirmed what Tovey had already told to Roskill during his visits between 1952 and 1960 and what he had (or would ) have written to the same Roskill in his 1961 letter, that explains, for the benefit of a reputed historian, what was behind the stage in this "saga".
After his 1941 letter surfaced (thanks to Mr.Wadinga ), confirming that the threat was actually done, NOBODY should be able to repeat what the novelist Kennedy inserted in his shameful footnote, insinuating Tovey's memory failures (already refuted by Roskill advise...), except someone wanting to make a fool of himself.
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
The title of the thread is The "Court Martial for the Denmark Strait"
McMullen's recollection of being told the same thing by Tovey, as Tovey told Roskill is valueless. Tovey told him the same misremembering.
You have one hope of regaining any credibility. Stop Antonio wittering about shepherds and sheep and get him to expose the Silver Bullet, an act which might persuade people he has some residual interest in what really happened, rather than making a quick buck out of out-Cernuschi-ing Cernuschi in the Storia Militare pantheon of made-up Conspiracy Theorists.
All the best
wadinga
The title of the thread is The "Court Martial for the Denmark Strait"
THE threat was not done, merely a request for a Board of Inquiry, forcefully rejected. The May 31st letter contradicts and disproves Tovey's much later assertion based on 15-20 year old memory with its theatrical "three act denial". The rest of this letter and the subsequent one show no sign of the animosity which would exist if C-in-C Home Fleet had actually threatened to resign, merely so that he could properly frustrate the "relentless" will of the First Sea Lord.confirming that the threat was actually done,
EVERYBODY repeating Tovey's unsubstantiated assertion, first published by Kennedy, should have repeated his entirely justified caveat. ANYBODY reading the 31st May letter would question Tovey's late life memory and would have left the unsubstantiated assertion out of their accounts, unless they had some other corroboration.NOBODY should be able to repeat what the novelist Kennedy inserted in his shameful footnote,
McMullen's recollection of being told the same thing by Tovey, as Tovey told Roskill is valueless. Tovey told him the same misremembering.
These are proven. His misremembered when the ROOF signal was received, he complained about not receiving a worked out position for the D/F when he himself, confirmed by Jock Clayton, had insisted he should receive bearings only.insinuating Tovey's memory failures
You have one hope of regaining any credibility. Stop Antonio wittering about shepherds and sheep and get him to expose the Silver Bullet, an act which might persuade people he has some residual interest in what really happened, rather than making a quick buck out of out-Cernuschi-ing Cernuschi in the Storia Militare pantheon of made-up Conspiracy Theorists.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
after having (fairly enough) published the May 31 1941 letter, Mr.Wadinga is unable that this very letter confirms in writing that a threat to two timid officers was done (and just better explained in its aim in Tovey's 1961 letter to Roskill).....
There is nothing we can do different than agree to disagre on this "interpretation", leaving him quibbling about the "deep difference" of requesting a BofI into the conduct of two timid officers or directly requesting a Court Martial for them (the logical consequence of a BofI in case the dereliction of duty was proven).
Whoever will write about these facts will choose his own interpretation, until something new will surface....
Bye, Alberto
after having (fairly enough) published the May 31 1941 letter, Mr.Wadinga is unable that this very letter confirms in writing that a threat to two timid officers was done (and just better explained in its aim in Tovey's 1961 letter to Roskill).....
There is nothing we can do different than agree to disagre on this "interpretation", leaving him quibbling about the "deep difference" of requesting a BofI into the conduct of two timid officers or directly requesting a Court Martial for them (the logical consequence of a BofI in case the dereliction of duty was proven).
Whoever will write about these facts will choose his own interpretation, until something new will surface....
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Mr Jurens,Bill Jurens wrote: ↑Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:12 am I am confused. Exactly who is the shepherd to which you refer?
Surely you yourself could be the shepherd and begin to lead all out of the woods by telling us more about the 'silver bullet'.
Bill Jurens
It would be the obvious thing to do.
The sheep analogy is ironic really. Rather than herd participants into pastures of cover up without question, they have challenged the premise... Not very sheep like.
And if the trigger was pulled firing the "silver bullet" it may help others to understand why the proposers of the cover up are so confident despite the (mounting) flaws in their theory...
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
Alberto Virtuani wrote :
They like to comment about what they call a " theory " or the subsequent event management by the RN/Admiralty ( the " Cover Up " ) but they carefully avoid to comment and provide their interpretation on the original documents referring to this event, ... the real foundamental problem to be addressed.
Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 letter to Adm Pound is a fact.
Adm Tovey 1961 letter to Stephen Roskill is a fact.
The ADM 205/10 pages 331;332;333;334 containing Sir Barnes (Admiralty Board-Their Lordship) acceptance of Adm Tovey dispatches is a fact.
The King rewarding for the 2 Officers subject to a Board of Inquiry request by the First Sea Lord Adm Pound is a fact.
Of course for them, ... they are almost not existing at all, ... and not worth an analysis of the events, ... an historical correlation and a comment.
They like only to comment on a supposed " theory " by somebody ... in my opinion it is far from being a pragmatic historical approach on the existing documents related to those facts.
Anyway, ... this is what this forum apparently can offer ... from the historical analytical capabilities stand point ...
Bye Antonio
Alberto Virtuani wrote :
It appears that the problem either for " hooligan/deniers " or sheep/shepherd is to realize ( of course intentionally ) that there are still available official documents to be taken into account about this shameful event.After his 1941 letter surfaced (thanks to Mr.Wadinga ), confirming that the threat was actually done, NOBODY should be able to repeat what the novelist Kennedy inserted in his shameful footnote, insinuating Tovey's memory failures (already refuted by Roskill advise...), except someone wanting to make a fool of himself.
They like to comment about what they call a " theory " or the subsequent event management by the RN/Admiralty ( the " Cover Up " ) but they carefully avoid to comment and provide their interpretation on the original documents referring to this event, ... the real foundamental problem to be addressed.
Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 letter to Adm Pound is a fact.
Adm Tovey 1961 letter to Stephen Roskill is a fact.
The ADM 205/10 pages 331;332;333;334 containing Sir Barnes (Admiralty Board-Their Lordship) acceptance of Adm Tovey dispatches is a fact.
The King rewarding for the 2 Officers subject to a Board of Inquiry request by the First Sea Lord Adm Pound is a fact.
Of course for them, ... they are almost not existing at all, ... and not worth an analysis of the events, ... an historical correlation and a comment.
They like only to comment on a supposed " theory " by somebody ... in my opinion it is far from being a pragmatic historical approach on the existing documents related to those facts.
Anyway, ... this is what this forum apparently can offer ... from the historical analytical capabilities stand point ...
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
QEDHerr Nilsson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:22 am There are more than enough very reasonable counter-arguments you are not willing to take into account, let alone to accept. The bottom line is that you've refused any constructive criticism and you're sticking to your opinion like Winklareth.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Quite.Herr Nilsson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:14 pmQEDHerr Nilsson wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:22 am There are more than enough very reasonable counter-arguments you are not willing to take into account, let alone to accept. The bottom line is that you've refused any constructive criticism and you're sticking to your opinion like Winklareth.
No doubt the ad hominens will continue unabated - I expect that the words "denier", "hooligan", "sheep, and "fact" (seems popular that last one!) will be used copiously .Maps will be displayed (despite the inherent issues) and witness testimony (dependent on whether it fits the theory) will be re played over and over again. And we will all get older and greyer.
The "silver bullet" could finish the debate either way.
Just needs to be fired.
Best wishes
HMSVF
- Antonio Bonomi
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- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
to make it clear.
Those documenst are more than enough to realize everything about this shameful event.
1) Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 response letter to Adm Pound Board of Inquiry request is a fact.
2) Adm Tovey 1961 letter to Stephen Roskill is a fact.
3) The ADM 205/10 pages 331;332;333;334 containing Sir Barnes (Admiralty Board-Their Lordship) acceptance of Adm Tovey dispatches is a fact.
4) The King rewarding for the 2 Officers subject to a Board of Inquiry request by the First Sea Lord Adm Pound ( ref point 1 above ) is a fact.
Who is not wiling to realize what happened referencing the above official documents, will not be able to do it despite anything else proposed in the future.
But it is his problem, ... not mine.
For me all is clear and properly documents and supported.
Bye Antonio
to make it clear.
Those documenst are more than enough to realize everything about this shameful event.
1) Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 response letter to Adm Pound Board of Inquiry request is a fact.
2) Adm Tovey 1961 letter to Stephen Roskill is a fact.
3) The ADM 205/10 pages 331;332;333;334 containing Sir Barnes (Admiralty Board-Their Lordship) acceptance of Adm Tovey dispatches is a fact.
4) The King rewarding for the 2 Officers subject to a Board of Inquiry request by the First Sea Lord Adm Pound ( ref point 1 above ) is a fact.
Who is not wiling to realize what happened referencing the above official documents, will not be able to do it despite anything else proposed in the future.
But it is his problem, ... not mine.
For me all is clear and properly documents and supported.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )