The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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paul.mercer
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
We generally agree that it was very difficult to sink a modern Battleship with gunfire alone so let us look at a totally different scenario, PoW fights on and damages Bismarck some more but takes a hammering from combined fire of 8” & 15” shells and is eventually slowed down enough to be sunk by torpedoes from PE. Meanwhile Bismarck, although badly damaged can still fight, steam and steer at a reasonable speed and heads for Brest while PE goes off to commence commerce raiding, what is going to stop her? The nearest ship capable of tacking Bismarck is Rodney who apparently passed within 50 miles of her later on, but Lutyens is not about to take on a 16” gunned ship with a damaged Bismarck so uses his speed to leave old Rodney trailing in his wake. The only other heavy forces within reach at the time are an old battlecruiser who may well suffer the same fate as Hood and was being held back for that reason, so the only hope is a torpedo carrying bi-plane which happily for the RN put one in Bismarck’s rudders –another few feet to the right (or left depending on which way she was steering) and it would have missed completely and Bismarck would have made Brest. However, my point is this, had that torpedo not hit a vital place Bismarck would almost certainly have got away, but even though it did not miss and the end of Bismarck was as we know it, in the end sacrificing PoW would have made little or no difference except that the RN had lost a second capital ship and her crew in one day.
I know there are some who disagree and suggest that Capt Leach should have fought on and of course one must respect their views, but surely even they must know that there comes a time when retreat, however distasteful, must be contemplated and if necessary undertaken, in order to save your ship and crew if a no-win situation occurs?
So I go back to one of my previous posts where I described the possible scenario on PoW after her bridge had been hit and ask all who are debating this accusation of cowardice -what would you have done if you were Capt Leach, fight on and risk losing you ship and all her crew or disengage and fall back on friendly forces and regroup? I also ask another question, do you think that PoW could have survived against the combined firepower of Bismarck and PE and if so was she ever really in a position to cause enough serious damage to stop Bismarck from proceeding to Brest?
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

this thread is not about Capt Leach being right or not on retreating after around 1 minute only his battleship while fully engaged ( intentionally by himself ) against the enemy he was supposed to damage and sink.

This thread is about accepting the fact that Adm Pound wanted Capt Leach under a board of inquiry -> Court martial ( Adm Tovey declaration ) for having done it, ... and after a series of documents and reports alteration, ... a false version of the facts being accepted by the Admiralty he was rewarded with a medal.

This is what his son, ... Sir Henry Leach, ... a Royal Navy First Sea Lord too, ... called the " Denmark Strait Saga ".

No one can state it was not done, ... because we have the original documents demonstrating it.

We are talking this shameful occurred event here in, ... not the fact that the action itself was logic and well done or not.

Surely the alteration of the real facts to justify it was a shame and everybody in fairness writing here in must accept and acknowledge it.

This is why this thread is here for, ... if someone wants to discuss another topic, ... please open a dedicated thread about it, ... unless it is already existing.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Byron Angel
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Byron Angel »

Paul Mercer wrote -
"Hi Byron,
Thanks for your evaluation, the trouble was that Wake-Walker was a long way behind PoW and could not have known what the conditions were like on her, Capt Leach had to make an on-the-spot decision and that was to disengage.
I go back to one of my previous posts where I described the possible scenario on PoW after her bridge had been hit and ask all who are debating this accusation of cowardice -What would you have done if you were Capt Leach, fight on and risk losing you ship and all her crew or disengage and fall back on friendly forces and regroup? I also repeat another question, how long do you think that PoW could have survived against the combined firepower of Bismarck and PE and was she in a position to cause serious damage to either of them?"


Hi Paul,
I wasn't really trying to present an evaluation of events; my intent was only to invite some attention to certain practical factors, considerations and issues that I do not recall having been yet scrutinized in a meaningful way (might be wrong, given the inordinate length of this thread) - hence my post having been being presented as a series of questions. I'm still interested in seeing some informed commentary on the questions posed.

Re PoW's chances against Bismarck in a gunnery duel ..... with PoW manned by a semi-trained crew, grappling with a mechanically unreliable main battery, reliant upon a single 15ft optical range-finder and opposed by a faster opponent with a fully effective main battery and operative radar-ranging, my money would clearly be on the German ship.

B
Last edited by Byron Angel on Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
HMSVF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by HMSVF »

paul.mercer wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:36 pm Gentlemen,
We generally agree that it was very difficult to sink a modern Battleship with gunfire alone so let us look at a totally different scenario, PoW fights on and damages Bismarck some more but takes a hammering from combined fire of 8” & 15” shells and is eventually slowed down enough to be sunk by torpedoes from PE. Meanwhile Bismarck, although badly damaged can still fight, steam and steer at a reasonable speed and heads for Brest while PE goes off to commence commerce raiding, what is going to stop her? The nearest ship capable of tacking Bismarck is Rodney who apparently passed within 50 miles of her later on, but Lutyens is not about to take on a 16” gunned ship with a damaged Bismarck so uses his speed to leave old Rodney trailing in his wake. The only other heavy forces within reach at the time are an old battlecruiser who may well suffer the same fate as Hood and was being held back for that reason, so the only hope is a torpedo carrying bi-plane which happily for the RN put one in Bismarck’s rudders –another few feet to the right (or left depending on which way she was steering) and it would have missed completely and Bismarck would have made Brest. However, my point is this, had that torpedo not hit a vital place Bismarck would almost certainly have got away, but even though it did not miss and the end of Bismarck was as we know it, in the end sacrificing PoW would have made little or no difference except that the RN had lost a second capital ship and her crew in one day.
I know there are some who disagree and suggest that Capt Leach should have fought on and of course one must respect their views, but surely even they must know that there comes a time when retreat, however distasteful, must be contemplated and if necessary undertaken, in order to save your ship and crew if a no-win situation occurs?
So I go back to one of my previous posts where I described the possible scenario on PoW after her bridge had been hit and ask all who are debating this accusation of cowardice -what would you have done if you were Capt Leach, fight on and risk losing you ship and all her crew or disengage and fall back on friendly forces and regroup? I also ask another question, do you think that PoW could have survived against the combined firepower of Bismarck and PE and if so was she ever really in a position to cause enough serious damage to stop Bismarck from proceeding to Brest?
Quite.

It is important to highlight this to the thread because any basis to the Churchill/Pound/Tovey backstory are the events of the action. It's an interesting observation in Santarini that "Leach was right in hindsight", given he didn't have the advantage of the Mk1 retro-scope he made the right decision full stop. Published recognised authors (Tarrant and Raven to name two) seem to agree with this.


Best wishes


HMSVF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Byron Angel »

Antonio wrote -
"this thread is not about Capt Leach being right or not on retreating after around 1 minute only his battleship while fully engaged ( intentionally by himself ) against the enemy he was supposed to damage and sink."

- - -

With all due respect, Antonio, this is the very crux of the matter. If Captain Leach was correct in his decision to disengage, then the entire Board of Inquiry/Court Martial threat, as it momentarily emerged and shortly thereafter evaporated, makes clear sense. The "cover-up" argument is completely reliant upon demonstrating that higher command perceived Leach's disengagement decision to have been "incorrect" - i.e., a consequence of bad command judgment or material cowardice. It is then furthermore necessary to explain why Leach (and Wake-Walker), having presumably escaped the embarrassment of an official court martial for "political" reasons, were not otherwise quietly side-lined to out-of-the-way locales where they could commit no further mischief. IMHO, neither case has been proven or explained to any degree of satisfaction.

Strictly my opinion, of course.

B
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape »

Please let the two gentlemen clowns alone, this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I insist to say that the world is flat and that it was created 6300 years ago by god, and I can prove this by [insert any nonsense her], nobody can stop me from doing this. This is where science and believe diverge, e.g. you cannot prove or disprove one with the other. These two concepts of organizing mind and life are just not compatible. Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously. So let A&A live in their fantasy world, if it makes them happy. DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Byron Angel,

what you are underlining is the whole problem in discussion on this thread and forum since we started managing this argument many years ago.

One thing is the discussion on whether Capt Leach and RearAdm Wake-Walker have been right on doing what they did, ... and everybody can express his own opinion of course, ... but a completely different story is what has been surely done about their conduct/actions by the Royal Navy Admiralty ( Adm Pound ) and by Adm Tovey.

It is useless and out of this thread subject the discussion about the fact they could have been right or not on doing what they did, ... and try to use that reason to try to state that consequently what has been done by the Admiralty ( Adm Pound ) and Adm Tovey has not been done, ... or even worst in light of the fact that they did the right thing ... consequently it was OK to do what they have done by " covering up " the reality altering intentionally the truth with Adm Tovey dispatches.

It is a fact that Adm Pound asked a Board of inquiry on their conduct and Adm Tovey refused to do it, the May 31st, 1941 letter removes all possible doubts about it.

If Adm Pound was not right on taking that initiative that he took in writing to Adm Tovey on May 28th, 1941, ... and Adm Tovey was right on defending them having done the right thing with his May 31st, 1941 response, ... why Adm Tovey altered the reports with his dispatches ?
Logic would dictate that it was enough to leave the reports and data the way they have been correctly written at first.

To make thing worst we have the Admiralty ( Sir Barnes letter ) approving ONLY the dispatches by Adm Tovey fact version, ... and we know it was intentionally falsified and altered, ... Stephen Roskill with the ADM 205/10 reference on his book clearly addressed this point.

Put it in any way you like it it was not a good story, ... very badly managed from the beginning until the end, ... with the initial intention to apply a very rigid discipline, ... over ruled by the propaganda needs in war time that soon after became too important to proceed with that discipline initiative no matter what, ... being right or wrong, ... and in fact they have been grouped with the other Officers on the rewarding.

End of the story, ... but again it was not a good story, ... and now we know well how it really went.

This is the truth, ... and no one can state that it was not a real occurrence, ... because we have all the original documents about it now.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,


Northcape, the very fact you and so many others have realised that a scurrilous Conspiracy Theory has been built on the myth of CMDS is enough. We have discovered the direct evidence that CMDS is a myth, and made it available, apparently for the first time ever here. Many serious authors who have parroted the CMDS myth should refrain from including it in future publications. Online sources should be changed Wake-Walker and Leach were never threatened with a Court Martial. This false memory should be expunged.

It is a fact that Adm Pound asked a Board of inquiry on their conduct and Adm Tovey refused to do it, the May 31st, 1941 letter removes all possible doubts about it.

Agreed, so far. I supplied the letter. :cool:


Since there is no evidence that Pound thought these officers were in any way suspect, and kept them in post or gave them promotion, the content of the missing 24th May letter cannot have included a requirement for a Board of Inquiry backed up by real suspicion. They could not be left in such demanding positions if they had behaved in the manner alleged by A & A. Tovey spends very little time in his letter defending the accuseds' actions, since they need no defence. The matter is closed for him and he "hears no more about it", until he unfortunately makes up his embarrassing little embellishment 15 years later, one which he requests Roskill to keep silent about.


Tovey's phone call in which he apparently threatened to resign as C-in-C Home Fleet on the 30th May is not mentioned at all in the letter written by him to Pound on the 31st May. The reason is simple, it never happened as he described, but was an embroidery he invented sometime in the mid Fifties about the time he invented the ROOF signal before Bismarck was sunk and forgot why he was not sent positions as well as intercepted bearings.

why Adm Tovey altered the reports with his dispatches ?
Logic would dictate that it was enough to leave the reports and data the way they have been correctly written at first.
The changes are irrelevant and immaterial. If PoW's Y turret stopped working because of a course change who can say how long it would have worked before it broke down for another reason. Such trivia are not reasons for Court Martial. Only A & A think they are important. Tovey incorporated additional information from sources he knew nothing about when he wrote his preliminary report.
Stephen Roskill with the ADM 205/10 reference on his book clearly addressed this point
I have read the ADM 205/10 at pages 331, 332, 333 and 334. before anyone else here, and I know that nowhere do they mention discipline, or Board of Enquiry and certainly not Court Martial. I posted a description of their contents here in Sept 2017.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

an " hooligan/denier " wrote :
The changes are irrelevant and immaterial.
Of course they were not irrelevant, they just make the difference between going directly under a Court Martial in case of a Board of Inquiry, ... or have a possibility to be rewarded like it happened .

Same goes for the 20.000 vs the 30.000 yards ( around 15 sea miles on Tovey dispatches point 17 ) for Norfolk and RearAdm Wake-Walker.

Clear, evident, logic and irrefutable, ... well documented on the official documents.

The fact that those guys reading documents are unable to understand what they mean, ... like for the maps, with geometry and trigonometry, ... does not surprise me at all.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

northcape wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:11 pm Please let the two gentlemen clowns alone, this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I insist to say that the world is flat and that it was created 6300 years ago by god, and I can prove this by [insert any nonsense her], nobody can stop me from doing this. This is where science and believe diverge, e.g. you cannot prove or disprove one with the other. These two concepts of organizing mind and life are just not compatible. Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously. So let A&A live in their fantasy world, if it makes them happy. DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
Hi Northcape,
DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
[/quote]
At Last, someone agrees with me about bringing this debate to an end and hopefully restore the mutual respect we once had for each others opinions in this forum.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by HMSVF »

paul.mercer wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:25 am
northcape wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:11 pm Please let the two gentlemen clowns alone, this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I insist to say that the world is flat and that it was created 6300 years ago by god, and I can prove this by [insert any nonsense her], nobody can stop me from doing this. This is where science and believe diverge, e.g. you cannot prove or disprove one with the other. These two concepts of organizing mind and life are just not compatible. Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously. So let A&A live in their fantasy world, if it makes them happy. DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
Hi Northcape,
DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
At Last, someone agrees with me about bringing this debate to an end and hopefully restore the mutual respect we once had for each others opinions in this forum.
[/quote]


Agree. It's unresolvable.
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Unfortunately, Antonio Bonomi who has formerly written highly respected technical reference works, has branched out into fiction and tirelessly promoted this Conspiracy Theory which he has fabricated. If he wished to keep his opinion to himself that would be one thing, but that is not his intention. He wishes to see his alternative history adopted as the "truth". He has recruited an acolyte (one drifted away) and his evangelical effort continues. His "truth" has already been published in an Italian language military magazine, Storia Militare and as we have seen, he plans to have his creation gain credibility by including it in his next technical work as if it had the same value as his work on colour schemes, photo identification etc.
Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously.


Only by resisting and constantly exposing the inaccuracies, misrepresentation and omissions of his argument can this happy situation continue. The depressingly-high proportion of the population who believe the Moon Landings were faked despite the clarity of the evidence shows how the stupidest ideas can gain creedence even when the strongest efforts are made to discredit them. There is nothing which will make A & A change their minds, my arguments are not meant for that, because they are beyond help. However the excitement of their new "take" might deceive those just beginning to take an interest in naval history.

There are several threads dealing with PoW's or Bismarck's gunnery, The D/F question and other forums not at all concerned with the Denmark Straits, and none of which include the passions raised here. For those in search of the peaceful, harmonious life of uncontentious "mutual respect" they are a haven. If the vexacious atmosphere here in specific threads is too much to bear, one does does not need to enter. Through the good auspices of the splendid Jose Rico this website covers many different areas and we should all be suitably thankful to him.

they just make the difference between going directly under a Court Martial in case of a Board of Inquiry

Only in the case of vessel loss can a Court Martial be "called directly". In such a opinion-based case, and especially with so little information being available before reports were filed, whatever the preliminary report compiled by one individual said, it would be necessary to have a Board of Enquiry first as per Kings Regs


The May 31st letter proves that CMDS is a myth. The Conspiracy Theory is a myth built on a myth.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
HMSVF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by HMSVF »

wadinga wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:32 am Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Unfortunately, Antonio Bonomi who has formerly written highly respected technical reference works, has branched out into fiction and tirelessly promoted this Conspiracy Theory which he has fabricated. If he wished to keep his opinion to himself that would be one thing, but that is not his intention. He wishes to see his alternative history adopted as the "truth". He has recruited an acolyte (one drifted away) and his evangelical effort continues. His "truth" has already been published in an Italian language military magazine, Storia Militare and as we have seen, he plans to have his creation gain credibility by including it in his next technical work as if it had the same value as his work on colour schemes, photo identification etc.
Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously.


Only by resisting and constantly exposing the inaccuracies, misrepresentation and omissions of his argument can this happy situation continue. The depressingly-high proportion of the population who believe the Moon Landings were faked despite the clarity of the evidence shows how the stupidest ideas can gain creedence even when the strongest efforts are made to discredit them. There is nothing which will make A & A change their minds, my arguments are not meant for that, because they are beyond help. However the excitement of their new "take" might deceive those just beginning to take an interest in naval history.

There are several threads dealing with PoW's or Bismarck's gunnery, The D/F question and other forums not at all concerned with the Denmark Straits, and none of which include the passions raised here. For those in search of the peaceful, harmonious life of uncontentious "mutual respect" they are a haven. If the vexacious atmosphere here in specific threads is too much to bear, one does does not need to enter. Through the good auspices of the splendid Jose Rico this website covers many different areas and we should all be suitably thankful to him.

they just make the difference between going directly under a Court Martial in case of a Board of Inquiry

Only in the case of vessel loss can a Court Martial be "called directly". In such a opinion-based case, and especially with so little information being available before reports were filed, whatever the preliminary report compiled by one individual said, it would be necessary to have a Board of Enquiry first as per Kings Regs


The May 31st letter proves that CMDS is a myth. The Conspiracy Theory is a myth built on a myth.


All the best

wadinga

I agree with everything you have said Wadinga

However what is the end point to this debate?We know the stance that has been taken, it will not change, no matter what. The uses of such words as "coward" and "timid" tell you all you need to know. Its been debated at length and shows no resolution, because there cannot be resolution. Recognised experts in the field have said on this forum why the whole cover up story is flawed but the proposers continue regardless. Fortunately in the days of social media people can make their own mind up and review online anybody's work. As long as there are people interested there will be those who will read round the subject and perhaps these very threads and make there own conclusions. The fact that the likes of Alan Raven and Bill Juren's have said that there are flaws in the whole thesis, the fact that the silver bullet seems to have disappeared into the ether is hardly a ringing endorsement.

When an outsider see's the words "loosers" ,"hooligans" and "deniers" on these forums what do you think they will take from that? To start a riposte with an Ad hominem rather than a critical response to a line of debate is hardly a reinforcement of a POV. Neither does it make the forum an attractive place to join. Watch the numbers drop.

Lock the thread, keep it as a uneditable reference to the debate, let the public decide (and review anything published - any review could reference this forum to make it clear the concerns )and move things on would be my suggestion.


Best wishes


HMSVF
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

HMSVF wrote: "When an outsider see's the words "loosers" ,"hooligans" and "deniers" on these forums what do you think they will take from that? "
What they will take from words like "idiot" or "stupid" or "ignorant" used MUCH BEFORE by the insulting guys ? :kaput: Please let's be serious !

Now they have for them the words that are more appropriate to define people unable to read the documents (accepting what is written), to look at a map, or to understand what all historians + Sir Henry Leach had explained them. Loosers is obvious from evidences, deniers is blatant from their attitude when presented with a new evidence and hooligan from their poorly educated insults.


The only new aspect Antonio has revealed, the "cover-up", is what make them furious because they still prefer to think that Tovey was making innocent errors when writing points 17 and 19 of the despatches (not attempting to protect two timid officers), that Pinchin left the bearings cut in the middle of the Ocean because of a lack of attention, that Wake-Walker was perfectly honest changing his previous declarations, that Ellis was a poor old sailor when writing his autobiography, that Pound was weak when requesting in writing a BofI into the conduct of the two militarily poor officers, that Tovey was affected by dementia when telling Roskill about the Court Martial threat, etc.etc.....

All the story has been already published on the most serious Italian military history magazine and it will be enhanced and published in English too, because it is supported by all the evidence available (plus some "extras" :wink: ), while they have ONLY their anger for the end of the fairy tale they have loved so much until now. :lol: :lol: :lol:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

Wadinga » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:32 am
Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
An excellent idea!

Gentlemen,
It appears that what we are arguing about are several different points 1) Should Capt Leach should have continued the battle instead of dis-engaging, (2 Whether Adml Wake Walker should have re-engaged) (3 Whether one or both should or should not have have been Court Martialed (3 Did Adml Pound order a Court Martial and (5 Did Adml Tovey threaten to haul down his flag and offer to be the 'prisoners friend' and finally (6 Should Capt Leach be regarded as a coward for taking the action that he did?
We have heard all the arguments put forward by those whom I personally consider to be extremely knowledgeable on Naval affairs over 151 posts (so far) without coming to any real conclusions and it would appear that this debate is obviously going nowhere except in circles as both sides are firmly entrenched with their views and nothing, it seems will change them.
What concerns me most is the tone this and one or two other debates in this Forum are taking, generally speaking we have always respected each others views even if we totally disagree with them and should it continue then there is a real chance that this Forum will lose some of its best and most knowledgeable contributors over something that may or may not have occurred after the battle of 77 years ago.
Can we not stop this now, agree to disagree and as HMSF said " Lock the thread, keep it as a un-editable reference to the debate, let the public decide (and review anything published - any review could reference this forum to make it clear the concerns)and move things on would be my suggestion".
Over to you Gentlemen.
Locked