The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

[A Raven]

Mr Bonomi stated that Pound "was most likely thinking to propose an inquiry/court martial for Captain Leach and Captain Wake-Walker ...."

I write as someone who has ACTUALLY read IN FULL, Leach and Wake-Walkers report, something which it appears that Mr Bonomi has not.

No objective person, after reading the above reports in full, could ever think that these two individuals should be brought before a Courts Martial.

It is a pity that Mr Bonomi argues continuously on the internet, rather than spending his time actually writing the article.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

so Duncan you can write to the Royal Navy Admiralty and tell them to correct their statement about 06.03 on Battle Summary Nr 5 of 1948

Norfolk GO to Bismarck was 27.200 yards = 13,43 sea miles, so within gun extreme range, fire was NOT opened intentionally because of fall of shells observation.
The 10 sea miles were referred between Norfolk and Hood and in fact " The Plot " once corrected shows around 11 sea miles and not 15 sea miles.

Leach changed his opinion/reports 3 times on 11 days ( 24th May to June 4th ) ... and WW changed his deposition 2 times, from 10 to 15 sea miles after only 4 days after the first board signed declaration ( 31st May to June 4th ) ... ... and those are officially documented facts.

I agree with you about this :

Any possibility of an inquiry/CM seems to have vanished after Tovey's supposed phone conversation with Pound.

Guess why ???

Still it was better NOT to declare the real facts and " adjust " a bit the reports, ... just in case, ... WW did it all for Tovey which pick them up with his Dispatches on July.
Than there was the absolute need to cancel Wake-Walker Hood First board already released declaration of 10 sea miles ... and that is why they called the Second board and made " The Plot " ... to cancel the previous dangerous declaration of 10 sea miles.

@ RF,

you wrote :

It is still assumption and conjecture on your part. These details do not constitute any proof of such charges you wish to prefer.

I agree ! It is my personal opinion based on the facts I have shared and the evidence I have provided.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

so now you have realized that Henry Leach did talk with his father about Bismarck and the Denmark Strait in Singapore while having a dinner alone with him on board the HMS Prince of Wales.

I read it because you'll recall I discovered it, perhaps you can remind me about the part where they discuss the Court Martial.

Hello Dunmunro.

Tovey stated (apparently) that he had a telephone conversation with Pound regarding an inquiry/CM. No where is it stated/implied/inferred that anyone ever informed W-W and/or Leach about the same.

Nowhere. However it's a big secret to keep ........secret.


It also depends which version of the story you believe. Tovey was phoned as soon as he arrived in the story told to McMullen but it took reading all the reports to reach a conclusion in the Kennedy version.

The problem with a story which only appears 20 years after the event is keeping it consistent. Unlike the truth..........

If it was a two-person secret between Churchill and Pound, no memos, no secretaries, for your eyes only and then the legendary phone call followed by a report back." Hello PM, Pound here, about your idea of a Court Martial, err, no dice Tovey says he won't play ball." To which Winston replies "Oh well, it was just a thought. I'm used to being thwarted. Let's give them some medals and stuff instead." "Oh and by the way I like the cut of Leach's jib, so he stays on as Captain when we all go to America."

Tovey keeps it secret for 20 years. Especially from his cruiser commander and the captain of his newest battleship.

It doesn't make any sense at all does it?

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Wadinga:
Hi Sean, apparently it made a lot of sense for Sir Henry Leach, who trusted the CM request and felt the need to comment on it.....

And if it made sense for Capt.Leach's son, RN Admiral and First Sea Lord, I think it should make sense for everybody.

Bye; Alberto

[paulcadogan]

Still it was better NOT to declare the real facts and " adjust " a bit the reports, ... just in case, ... WW did it all for Tovey which pick them up with his Dispatches on July.
Than there was the absolute need to cancel Wake-Walker Hood First board already released declaration of 10 sea miles ... and that is why they called the Second board and made " The Plot " ... to cancel the previous dangerous declaration of 10 sea miles.

Antonio...what you have written here suggests that you believe the second Board of Inquiry into Hood's loss - all the plethora of interviews with experts, witnesses and survivors, the analysis and conclusions - was just a charade to cover Wake-Walker??? No my friend, you need to think very carefully before you write these things!

And I'd like to point out too, that nowhere in the court martial conversation story, including all the ensuing permutations, is it stated that WW was being scrutinized for his conduct during the DS battle, but afterwards for failing to re-engage. Tovey then said he heard no more about it after the conversation. If so, then why go to all the trouble to adjust documentation if the matter was closed?

And I don't think Duncan is saying that 0613 is the actual disengagement time - Norfolk's log said 0614, PoW's log said 0611 as the time of ceasing fire, Suffolk's report stated that firing ceased at 0612. WW put 0613 in his report to Tovey. Nofolk's GO placed the range to Bismarck at over 30,000 yards at the opening of fire - we have no documentation of where the initial 20,000 yard range to Hood at the time of her destruction came from do we? We just have Plan B and the skethches.

Now regardless of the actual ranges and times, there is therefore documentation to support what Tovey wrote - even though it was (time) or may have been (range) wrong - so to conclude that he did it with the intention to deceive is flawed. You can fault him for not rationalizing those times with the Rowell track chart, but that's about it.

Also, we have to take into account Tovey's view of Leach's and WW's actions. He said they did exactly what he would have wanted - and this is not coming from favouritism! Tovey KNEW the condition of PoW and her gun issues. She was there to support Hood as much as she was able - there was no other ship available to do the job. He certainly, therefore, would agree with Leach's decision to withdraw with PoW largely intact and still capable so that she could support KGV and Repulse once they were able to join.

Knowing, as well, that if WW maintained contact, he would be able to bring Bismarck to battle within 24 hours - he therefore supported WW's actions in the aftermath. This is why he responded in the way he did in his related conversation with Pound.

On a lighter note..I see I've given you a new catch phrase! So.....in response I can just hear Adms Tovey and Wake-Walker and Capt Leach in the great Beyond singing the chorus of Billy Joel's hit song...."We didn't start the fire! It was always burnin' since the world been turnin'!"

Paul

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Paul Cadogan,

I see you surprise from the above statement I wrote being intentionally " a bit provocative " ... so someone could ask me if there were evidence that somebody wrote that the Hood Second Board was useless and did not realize why it was called at all given the First Board evidences ...

But I thought that a much more provocative phrase I wrote before was going to start a " bigger fire ", ... this one :

... WW did it all for Tovey which pick them up with his Dispatches on July.

Anyway, to make a long story short this is the way I see it about those events.

The 06.03 versus 06.13 PoW retreat time on the various reports needs only to be associated to a single word :

... improperly ...

Where 06.03 was surely " improperly " ... and 06.13 starts being possibly " properly done ", ... especially if you provide a long list of all sorts of problems on your new battleship occurred on that timeframe.

While the 10 versus 15 sea miles must be associated to some more concepts contained on the Articles of War :

... his utmost Exertion ... encourage his inferior Officers ... improperly withdrew ...

I will explain you in Military terms.

If you are at around 10 sea miles you must engage with utmost exertion ,... must encourage your subordinates with your example opening fire to support/help your friends ... you must not retreat from a battle you are basically into.

If you are at 15 sea miles you cannot be blamed for exertion, since you cannot do it being out of range, ... you cannot encourage with your example and orders who is in there retreating while you are too far away and unable to support him ... and you cannot retreat from a battle you are not into.

As Sean correctly realized, when Adm Pound called Adm Tovey he had not studied yet anything, in fact his initial intentions were only to charge RearAdm Wake-Walker for not having re-engaged in the afternoon after he sent him the radio message.

But when the court martial idea was dropped, ... than the " cover up " took care of everything in any direction ... including the previously released " suicidal " signed declarations in front of the Hood First Board of Inquiry.

I hope now it is sufficiently clear why the " modifications " occurred exactly where they were needed by the potential charges.

The 06.03 became 06.13 ... and the 10 sea miles of the First board became officially 15 during the Second Board thanking " The Plot " ... meanwhile somebody had " changed " his mind within 3/4 days only from the first board signed declaration ... writing 15 sea miles already, together with the 06.13 PoW retreat time ... on June 4th, 1941 ...

Just a coincidence ? I seriously doubt.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello All,

As Sean correctly realized, when Adm Pound called Adm Tovey he had not studied yet anything, in fact his initial intentions were only to charge RearAdm Wake-Walker for not having re-engaged in the afternoon after he sent him the radio message.

Which radio message? This one?

19:16 24th May Admiralty to Norfolk, Suffolk "Shadowing by Norfolk has been admirable. Keep it up and good luck" So at 19:16 after a whole day of non-engaging W-W gets an encouraging, approving message from Pound.


The only thing i have "correctly realised" is that McMullen's version where Pound phones up immediately, threatening Court Martial without even being aware of the facts

he had not studied yet anything

is even more unlikely than Kennedy's version. Of course Kennedy admitted his version was extremely unlikely by detailing Tovey's memory shortcomings.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

I am referring to this message sent from the Admiralty to RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker on the early afternoon of May 24th, 1941 at 14.45 ( received at 15.45 by WW ) asking him his intention to re-engage the enemy.

Reference Adm Tovey dispatches point 23 by RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker himself :

23. The Rear-Admiral Commanding, First Cruiser Squadron, in his report says:

"At 15.45 Admiralty signal 14.45 had been received.

At that time I had no evidence that the enemy's speed was in any way reduced by damage and I did not consider it likely that he would fight or that we could catch him, as his policy was obviously evasion.

The question whether I should re-engage with Prince of Wales had been exercising my mind for some time before the receipt of this signal.

.....

From here :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm

This is the only " charge " that at the end of May 1941 Adm Pound was telling Adm Tovey being related to RearAdm Wake-Walker.

But it could have been much more than that, ... as we know today ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

Sir Henry Leach, in his autobiography, merely recounts the Court martial story. As I posted

After repeating the Court Martial story he goes on. “Father was awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

[New Paragraph] This saga emerged later and anyway I had little opportunity……”

If he comments at all on its veracity it is the telling phrase

Father was awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

Enough said.

Although, strangely enough Antonio did not reproduce page 5 with its description of the injuries the "unhurt" Leach senior suffered or the Court Martial story with lack of any detail not publicly available for years before this book was written.

All the best

Sean

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

So you don't mean this message where Pound specifically approves Wake-Walker's actions?

19:16 24th May Admiralty to Norfolk, Suffolk "Shadowing by Norfolk has been admirable. Keep it up and good luck" So at 19:16 after a whole day of non-engaging W-W gets an encouraging, approving message from Pound.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

no one is writing that Capt Leach and RearAdm Wake-Walker have not been awarded at the end of all this story.

This is in fact part of the problem we are debating here, given the facts and the evidences.

It is a fact that at 14.45 on May 24th, 1941 the Admiralty asked RearAdm Wake-Walker his intention to re-engage the enemy.

He responded with his reasons not to re-engage.

Sir Henry Leach, like Kennedy and McMullen reported that it was the main reason of the potential court martial charges to WW.

As simple as that.

I have provided you above other reasons for Wake-Walker to be worried about a court martial after his " suicidal " signed declarations of being at 10 sea miles from Hood and a bit more from the enemy at the Hood First Board of Inquiry.

But it took him only 3/4 days to " make up his mind " on a very different way, since on June 4th, 1941 he signed a report declaring he was at 15 sea miles from Hood ... and consequently out of the enemy range ...

On the same report WW started the " innocent error " of 06.13 instead of 06.03 for PoW retreat time, ... while only few days before Adm Tovey on a May 30th, 1941 own signed document it was declared being occurred " after a couple of minutes after Hood explosion " ... so around 06.03 ...

But apparently ... Adm Tovey did not realize all those " innocent errors " by WW ... and we know well what he wrote on his July 5th, 1941 dispatches at point 17 and 19, ... do we ?

YES, we do : 06.13 and 15 sea miles.

You surely noticed that the 15 sea miles had been " evaluated " stated and signed, long before " The Plot " by Pinchin ...

Poor Pinchin only had to make it in " paper format " for the Hood Second board ... one way or the other ... and we know how he did it ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

I've just realised what it is, I don't have your "hdden message" decoding chip.

When I see

19:16 24th May Admiralty to Norfolk, Suffolk "Shadowing by Norfolk has been admirable. Keep it up and good luck"

I read

19:16 24th May Admiralty to Norfolk, Suffolk "Shadowing by Norfolk has been admirable. Keep it up and good luck" .

So I mistakenly understand that at 19:16 after a whole day of non-engaging W-W gets an encouraging, approving message from Pound

When I should understand "19:16 24th May Shadowing by Norfolk has been deplorable, improve at once or face a Court Martial!" Understanding Pound plans official disciplinary action, without telling anybody else at all, for days.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

just a small question for you : in Adm Pound shoes ( it was a War Room of many Officers in reality ) in that situation what were you going to signal to him given his previously showed attitudes and the whole situation you were into ?

I like your personal opinion ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

The situation is quite straightforward. If you were correct and Pound was contemplating a Court martial for W-W's actions so far:

"Your response 16:19 to my 14:45 unacceptable. Further delay unacceptable. Engage the enemy more closely.Good Luck."

The Pound who instructed PQ-17 to scatter did not deal in elliptical hidden messages, saying one thing and meaning another. He said Norfolk's actions were admirable. Admirable. End of message.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

I see your opinion, so if he was so sure to be so " admirable " as you wrote, why according to you he did all this :

I have provided you above other reasons for Wake-Walker to be worried about a court martial after his " suicidal " signed declarations of being at 10 sea miles from Hood and a bit more from the enemy at the Hood First Board of Inquiry.

But it took him only 3/4 days to " make up his mind " on a very different way, since on June 4th, 1941 he signed a report declaring he was at 15 sea miles from Hood ... and consequently out of the enemy range ...

On the same report WW started the " innocent error " of 06.13 instead of 06.03 for PoW retreat time, ... while only few days before Adm Tovey on a May 30th, 1941 own signed document it was declared being occurred " after a couple of minutes after Hood explosion " ... so around 06.03 ...

But apparently ... Adm Tovey did not realize all those " innocent errors " by WW ... and we know well what he wrote on his July 5th, 1941 dispatches at point 17 and 19, ... do we ?

YES, we do : 06.13 and 15 sea miles.

You surely noticed that the 15 sea miles had been " evaluated " stated and signed, long before " The Plot " by Pinchin ...

Poor Pinchin only had to make it in " paper format " for the Hood Second board ... one way or the other ... and we know how he did it ...

Bye Antonio