The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

I have the whole 205, and,as an amateur, I have looked into it having a glance at (if not reading) all pages,

No you almost certainly don't since I doubt you have 205/210 on the requirements and development of helicopters or 205/53 First Sea Lord's dockets.

You are as imprecise as Brodhurst, folio 205 is all the First Sea Lord's papers through 1937-1968, except those that are not in there but elsewhere.
Therefore he has almost surely read Tovey's answer from May 31 (and probably Pound's May 28 request
but forgot to quote or reference them. :shock:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
once accepted that Roskill was aware before 1954 of the Court Martial threat, that Wake-Walker was member of an influential family and that there were enough possible charges to call a Court Martial (or a Board of inquiry) into both his and Leach conduct, let's move to:

Wadinga wrote: "You are as imprecise as Brodhurst, folio 205 is all the First Sea Lord's papers through 1937-1968, "
Mr.Wadinga is right. I had only decided to copy all the ones related to 1941 as I was not interested to other periods/arguments.
I can guess Brodhurst got the 205 papers related to Pound's period as First Sea Lord, possibly looking at something related to Pound prior to this period).

Still it's Mr.Wadinga who has to demonstrate that Brodhurst has not seen may 31 letter, having referenced its folio number in his bibliography and having stated in clear that Pound WROTE to Tovey (as specified ONLY in the May 31 letter (and in May 28 one) as far as we know)..... :negative:


Wadinga wrote: "but forgot to quote or reference them"
Brodhurst did not quote even Wake-Walker's "infuriating" reply to Pound regarding his intentions to re-engage, in the same paragraph, and so what ? :?:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

At last an admission that Brodhurst's unspecific ADM listings are so vague as to be useless. I did explain this to you:
Since for instance in Folio ADM 205 there are 30 volumes each of maybe 350 pages, that's 10,500 pages
In the one that holds the May 31st letter there are also about 10,500 pages, and picking the right 350 is not so easy.
as specified ONLY in the May 31 letter (and in May 28 one) as far as we know)
Only with the blindness of obsession could anybody gleefully leap on Tovey's observation that Pound wrote to him, and ignore that that Tovey was responding as he says to a threat only of a Board of Inquiry and associate this with Broadhurst's vague wrote observation without any evidence being supplied that it was about a Court Martial. The same blindness that ignores that Tovey wrote it was a phone call, not a letter, when he eventually wrote something down in 1961. Who can guess what vague observations he made about it to Roskill in the years between 1954 and 1961? Since Roskill is apparently aware of the story in about 1954 it means he found no corroborating evidence in the TWENTY years before he persuaded Kennedy to release it.

Twenty years in which Paffard or Bingley or Brockman might have confirmed the myth, and yet apparently none did. The only observation from any of these close confidants is from Paffard who says Tovey exaggerated and magnified. Roskill does not disagree with these observations, and can provide no independent corroboration of Tovey's allegation, despite having twenty years to find some, he says Tovey only became a recluse at the end of his life. How could Roskill support the "crystal clear" recollection by Tovey since he knew from his own research that the ROOF signal on 26th May, about which Tovey was apparently more obssessed with than anything else, didn't exist.

Before any more twaddle about a super secret cipher that only Tovey could read for this non-existent message surfaces, we have information from honoured investigative journalist Ludovic Kennedy. In the footnotes to chapter 10 he writes

"Tovey received only one other signal from the Admiralty that night. It was sent from Pound in 'admirals only' cipher, and said 'Assume you are organizing destroyer night attacks if possible'". So yes there was a special cipher and yes we have the message sent in it. Where is the signal Kennedy mentions giving Tovey permission to break off and head for an Irish Port? (This needs to go to the relevant thread).

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
once accepted that Roskill was aware before 1954 of the Court Martial threat because Tovey did not invent it in only in 1961, that Wake-Walker was member of an influential family, that there were enough possible charges to call a Court Martial (or a Board of inquiry) into both his and Leach conduct and that there was a cypher for Admirals only (thanks to Mr.Wadinga for fairly admitting the deniers' error, when they were saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read) by any station/ship.... :lol: ), let's move to:
Wadinga wrote: "Brodhurst's unspecific ADM listings are so vague as to be useless"
This does not allow Mr.Wadinga to doubt that Brodhurst had seen May 31 Tovey's letter or May 28 Pound's letter as they are the ONLY instances in which a written threat is mentioned and Brodhurst did not parrot anyone on a written threat.

Wadinga wrote: ".....Since Roskill is apparently aware of the story in about 1954 it means he found no corroborating evidence in the TWENTY years before he persuaded Kennedy to release it......."
Mr.Wadinga builds this science-fiction screenplay because he doesn't want to simply accept that Roskill fairly did not released this info before Tovey death, even if he could have done so, as per Tovey request to him..... :negative:
Tovey_Roskill_14-12-1961_2_und.jpg
Tovey_Roskill_14-12-1961_2_und.jpg (98.88 KiB) Viewed 1289 times
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

you wrote :
… that Wake-Walker was member of an influential family ...
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/sear ... &pageSize=

and
… that there was a cypher for Admirals only (thanks to Mr.Wadinga for fairly admitting the deniers' error, when they were saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read ) by any station/ship....
It is enough to read the Official records to realize the full details of the radio wireless transmission methodology used during the Bismarck operation, the document is signed by Adm Tovey.

Any Transmission Officer like I have been knows this methods perfectly and in fact I wrote about it years ago here in.


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

wadinga wrote:

Twenty years in which Paffard or Bingley or Brockman might have confirmed the myth, and yet apparently none did. The only observation from any of these close confidants is from Paffard who says Tovey exaggerated and magnified. Roskill does not disagree with these observations, and can provide no independent corroboration of Tovey's allegation, despite having twenty years to find some, he says Tovey only became a recluse at the end of his life. How could Roskill support the "crystal clear" recollection by Tovey since he knew from his own research that the ROOF signal on 26th May, about which Tovey was apparently more obssessed with than anything else, didn't exist.

Before any more twaddle about a super secret cipher that only Tovey could read for this non-existent message surfaces, we have information from honoured investigative journalist Ludovic Kennedy. In the footnotes to chapter 10 he writes

"Tovey received only one other signal from the Admiralty that night. It was sent from Pound in 'admirals only' cipher, and said 'Assume you are organizing destroyer night attacks if possible'". So yes there was a special cipher and yes we have the message sent in it. Where is the signal Kennedy mentions giving Tovey permission to break off and head for an Irish Port? (This needs to go to the relevant thread).

All the best

wadinga
The above message from DP to Tovey, despite being sent in the super secret, FYEO, Rocky and Bullwinkle decoder ring, read once and then burn code, appears on Bismarckops.pdf page 33:
Assume you are organising destroyer night
attacks if this is possible. No answer
required. (1st S.L. 2056B/26 to C. in C.HF
I guess Tovey's gang slipped up on that one.... :lol:
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Thanks once again for reminding me that Tovey specifically told Roskill who to ask for confirmation of the CMDS threat, Bingley and Paffard. I wonder why he did that? Roskill apparently did nothing to verify this information from 1961 until..........forever Since the letter was passed on to Kennedy he also knew also who to ask and both are in his correspondents listing. We all know Paffard dismissed the threat as Tovey magnifying disagreements.

Since Roskill had been "cracking" at Pound and Churchill since War at Sea was published and would be doing more with his Sunday Telegraph articles in 1961 the idea that he would leave this juicy morsel untouched, even for verification, simply because of Tovey's wishes is extremely unlikely. Kennedy obviously contacted both individuals to verify the story immediately he received the flaky evidence from Roskill.

Roskill had access to the papers contained in 205/10 long before Tovey's demise and could have released the story if he had believed they actually confirmed the Court Martial threat, but as we know such a specific threat is not mentioned in these or any other piece of documentation yet discovered. When he does mention 205/10 (23 years after he knows about the threat) he still cannot identify anything specifically relating to "Court Martial".

The vague social connections of the Wake-Walker family did not sway the ultimate legal authorities in the case of the sinking of the merchant vessel, why would they change things later?

Superb investigative journalist that he was, Kennedy lists "ADM 205/10 -1941 April-Dec First Sea Lord's Papers. Correspondence with Prime Minister and accompanying papers." This contrasts with Brodhurst ADM 205 First Sea Lord's Papers". Who is the more thorough historical investigator?

Brodhurst makes the CMDS assertion without even quoting secondary sources like Kennedy or tertiary ones like Roskill (who quoted Kennedy). This is IMHO very poor historical research from Pound's self-appointed biographer. He has investigated other cases he mentions, like Norris and the captains of Gallant and Gypsy, but shows no evidence at all about Denmark Straits

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
once accepted that Roskill was aware before 1954 of the Court Martial threat because Tovey did not invent it in only in his 1961 letter, that Wake-Walker was member of a very influential family, that there were enough possible charges to call a Court Martial (or a Board of inquiry) into both his and Leach conduct under article 2 of the Naval Disciple Act, and that there was at least a cypher for Admirals only, possibly more than one only (thanks to Mr.Wadinga for fairly admitting the deniers' error, when they were saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read) by any station/ship.... :lol: ), let's move to:

Wadinga wrote: "Tovey specifically told Roskill who to ask for confirmation of the CMDS threat, Bingley and Paffard."
Where ? He just said that the ONLY people to know were these two guys, he didn't tell Roskill to ask for any confirmation about this "saga".... :negative: I see Mr.Wadinga fantasy is at work again.....
Paffard insinuations were demolished by Roskill and only mentioned later by Kennedy despite Roskill advice.....No historian has shared and adopted Kennedy view..... :think:

Wadinga wrote: " the idea that he would leave this juicy morsel untouched, even for verification, simply because of Tovey's wishes is extremely unlikely."
It is unlikely only for whom cannot accept what is written in Tovey's letter and recognize Roskill's fairness..... :negative:

Wadinga wrote: "Brodhurst makes the CMDS assertion without even quoting secondary sources....."
I agree quoting is important, but nobody quotes any statement when writing a book.This is something that should be asked to Brodhurst himself by Mr.Wadinga, for me Brodhurst statement is clear enough, and supports everything we have always said, confirmed by Tovey's 1941 and 1961 letters, that, despite a quibbling attempt over "different" procedures, mentioned in writing and during a phone call, point both to a serious threat against the two timid officers.

Mr.Wadinga, after having accused Brodhurst to have "parroted" others, should answer a direct question: who else stated that the threat was in WRITING before Brodhurst ?
In the absence of any answer, the only logical conclusion is that Brodhurst was aware of May31 Tovey's letter and/or of May28 Pound's one.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

we have now a written confirmation that not only Pound and Tovey spoke on the phone about Wake-Walker and Leach conduct during the Bismarck operation, but also we have the written evidence that they exchanged letters on May 28th, 1941 ( Pound to Tovey we do not have yet ) and from Tovey the response back to Pound on May 31st, 1941 that we do have now.

What Adm Pound could have asked to Adm Tovey ?

We can try to realize it based on Tovey response statements of course.

For example, given this response statement :
Wadinga_Tovey_to%20Pound_31May.jpeg
Wadinga_Tovey_to%20Pound_31May.jpeg (27.09 KiB) Viewed 1193 times
Is it likely that Adm Pound was requesting Adm Tovey :

Option A ) a written statement about and " Admirable " conduct thru the operation in order to evaluate a proper rewarding for such a fantastic performance by both Officers.

Option B ) To call a Board of Inquiry on their conduct being Adm Tovey their direct superior and consequently required to write the Circumstantial Letter for the Court Martial in case the Board of Inquiry would have found them negligent about something thru their analysis of their conduct given the circumstances.

The answer can be only one and it is fairly easy to realize which one it is based on Adm Tovey answer.

Bye, Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

we have now a written confirmation that not only Pound and Tovey spoke on the phone about Wake-Walker and Leach conduct during the Bismarck operation, but also we have the written evidence that they exchanged letters on May 28th, 1941 ( Pound to Tovey we do not have yet ) and from Tovey the response back to Pound on May 31st, 1941 that we do have now.


Bye, Antonio
Where was KGV on 28 May 1941? Tovey received Pound's letter on 31 May.
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Where ? He just said that the ONLY people to know were these two guys, he didn't tell Roskill to ask for any confirmation about this "saga"
Then why mention their names? If you actually want to keep something secret you don't tell an author who writes books the names of the other people who also know the secret. Besides there was also Pound...……………………….and anybody else in the world that he might have told. Alexander, Phillips, Brockman, tea lady at the Admiralty, people who had to help in the imaginary conspiracy. etc etc


and that there was at least a cypher for Admirals only, possibly more than one only (thanks to Mr.Wadinga for fairly admitting the deniers' error, when they were saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read) by any station/ship
Since we have the message transmitted in "Admiral's Only" we would have the 26th ROOF message if it existed. Somerville was an Admiral too, so would he.

Wadinga wrote: ".....Since Roskill is apparently aware of the story in about 1954 it means he found no corroborating evidence in the TWENTY years before he persuaded Kennedy to release it......."

Not publishing the story does not preclude Roskill from investigating it. He found no corroborating evidence in twenty years, the last ones after Tovey was dead. He found nothing with his unsurpassed knowledge and contacts, and only cites Kennedy himself.
I agree quoting is important, but nobody quotes any statement when writing a book.
This observation is nonsensical. When making an assertion there should be evidence to back it up. Brodhurst provides none.

the only logical conclusion is that Brodhurst was aware of May31 Tovey's letter and/or of May28 Pound's one.


No the logical conclusion is Brodhurst made a mistake. He poorly researched Tovey's 1961 letter. He didn't see he said it was a phone call. If he had bothered to quote or cite a source he would have identified his mistake.


Here's a clue to the prize coming later. Where in the national Archives would you look for a file on correspondence to the First Sea Lord? say from the C-in-C Home fleet? :D

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
once accepted that Roskill was aware before 1954 of the Court Martial threat and that Tovey did not invent it in only in his 1961 letter, that Wake-Walker was member of a very influential family (thanks to Antonio for re-posting the explicit photos.... :lol: ), that there were more than enough possible charges to call a Court Martial (or a Board of inquiry) into both his and Leach conduct under article 2 of the Naval Disciple Act, and that there was at least a cypher for Admirals only, possibly also one for the CinC HF only (after the deniers were keeping saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read) by any station/ship.... :lol: ), let's move to:
Wadinga wrote: "why mention their names? "
Possibly to explain to Roskill that few people were aware and how "sensitive" was the matter he had in his hands at that time. For sure not to "ask for confirmations" as invented by Mr.Wadinga.....

Wadinga wrote: "Since we have the message transmitted in "Admiral's Only" we would have the 26th ROOF message"
Who says there was not a "CinC HF only" cipher, as logical, for communicating things that only Tovey could see ?

Wadinga wrote: "He found no corroborating evidence in twenty years"
WRONG. He found ADM 205/10 and War Cabinet Minutes definitive proof of the "saga", and told about it in "Chiurchill and the Admirals" after Tovey's death, as requested and fairly done.
Extremely annoying the 205/10 for the deniers..... :lol:

Wadinga wrote: "Brodhurst provides none. "
He provides none also for the Wake-Walker reply that infuriated Pound in the same paragraph. Possibly a serious deficiency in such a detailed book, but the fact remains that Brodhurst was the very first one stating that the threat was in writing too, as we ourselves only could confirm via the May 31 1941 letter.
He didn't "parrot" anyone as Mr.Wadinga was insinuating......but I see that now Mr.Wadinga, having realized also this macroscopic error of him, tries to insinuate that Brodhurst just made a mistake, by now an impossible mission, after his own disclosure ( :clap: ) of May 31 letter has demonstrated that Brodhurst was substantially right..... :negative:

The only logical conclusion, reading Brodhurst, is that he had seen Pound May 28 and/or Tovey May 31 letters and/or any reference to them in other documents.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Two princesses went to his son's wedding? I got my university degree from HM the Queen Mother, would that get me off serious criminal charges? Wake-Walker's appeal to the highest authority was rejected.....end of evidence of influence. I realize for those living in a Republic there is automatic suspicion of aristocracy, based on probity of their own government (I thought 5 star were a pop group?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Star) but baronets are no big deal here.

Tovey led Kennedy straight to those who could uphold the CMDS story by saying what Tovey claimed he told them in 1941 and neither apparently did. This is important because it is not reliant on Tovey's memories in 1954 or 1961. Neither seem to have confirmed it and Paffard actually disparaged the myth, not mentioning at all what he is supposed to have been told in 1941, and referring only to Tovey's late-life characteristics. Roskill couldn't even be bothered to ask them and provides no corroboration. In twenty years.

File 205/10 is no support for CMDS. There is no mention of Court Martial. There is no mention of Board of Inquiry. There is no mention of any disciplinary measures at all. It is dated months after any such measures would have been implemented. It is a bureaucratic irrelevance. If Brodhurst had done his job well in this matter, he might have learned something when discussing matters with Brockman, as described in his foreword, but the CMDS myth is lazily trotted out with no amplification or justification at all. Not even Kennedy as a secondary source or Roskill as a tertiary.

If this were true...………..
of May 31 letter has demonstrated that Brodhurst was substantially right
simply because he wrote "wrote" it would mean Kennedy, Roskill and Tovey were all wrong because they all wrote "phone call". :stubborn:


To celebrate his bravery and mastery for which John Catterall Leach was rightly honoured, I hereby supply the reference file for Tovey's letter of 31st May 1941 in which his actions were successfully defended and the half-hearted proposal for a Board of Inquiry defeated. ADM 178/322.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
once accepted that Roskill was aware before 1954 of the Court Martial threat and that Tovey did not invent it in only in his 1961 letter, that Wake-Walker was member of a very influential family with W-W granddaughter being the Queen's goddaughter :lol: , that there were more than enough possible charges to call a Court Martial (or a Board of inquiry) into both his and Leach conduct under article 2 of the Naval Disciple Act, and that there was at least a cypher for Admirals only, possibly also one for the CinC HF only (after the deniers were keeping saying that a broadcasted transmission would have been received (and read) by any station/ship.... :lol: ), let's move to:

Wadinga wrote: "Tovey claimed he told them in 1941 and neither apparently did"
Another wrong statement. ONLY Paffard insinuated something, Bingley didn't (we don't have any statement from Bingley). Mr.Wadinga should not invent things just to corroborate his thin amount of evidences.... :negative:
Just after the war, Tovey suggested to Roskill to have his "War at Sea" details reviewed also by one of them: guess who ? :wink:

Wadinga wrote: "Paffard actually disparaged the myth"
and Paffard was rubbished by Roskill, The Historian.....and by all subsequent serious historians...... :lol:

Wadinga wrote: "File 205/10 is no support for CMDS"
Mr.Wadinga should complain about this with Roskill and with all serious historian who understood differently from him or (better" should write a book with all his fantasy interpretations. :negative:

Wadinga wrote: "If Brodhurst had done his job well in this matter, he might have learned something when discussing matters with Brockman"
Brockman surely saw both May 28 Pound's letter and Tovey's May 31 answer, being Pound secretary and he spoke to Brodhurst who then was the very first stating that Pound WROTE to Tovey about the Court Martial..... :think:
Mr.Wadinga starts to get close to the truth.

Wadinga wrote: "I hereby supply the reference file for Tovey's letter of 31st May 1941 in which his actions were successfully defended and the half-hearted proposal for a Board of Inquiry defeated. ADM 178/322."
:clap:
Mr.Wadinga, despite not realizing that the defeat of threat means that the threat was actually done.... :stubborn: , deserves a prize: here Tovey 1962 letter to Roskill, with the mention to the Wake-Walker "business" (apparently Tovey did not want to mention again the frightening words "Court Martial", or possibly, in Mr.Wadinga fantasy only, he was referring to a real estate business of W-W.... :negative: ) and the clear request that explains the reason why Roskill did not publish the "saga" until Tovey's death.
Tovey_Roskill_1962_1.jpg
Tovey_Roskill_1962_1.jpg (78.55 KiB) Viewed 1333 times
Tovey_Roskill_1962_2.jpg
Tovey_Roskill_1962_2.jpg (57.42 KiB) Viewed 1325 times
Enjoy everybody.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

There are privileges when one is promoted for one's service to the rank of Third Sea Lord. The privilege did not affect the failure of his appeal through the legal system.

We indeed do not know what Bingley may have said. We know neither Kennedy nor Roskill reports he confirms Tovey's story despite being nominated as a person who was supposedly told. Obviously it either never happened or Bingley didn't think it was outrageous enough to remember and mention. To prove an assertion you need confirmation. Neither Paffard nor Bingley provide it. As you point out Tovey nominated Bingley to speak for him to Roskill. I wonder whether Roskill actually asked Bingley?
and Paffard was rubbished by Roskill
Rubbished? Having decided to con Kennedy into getting the story into the public arena, Roskill tried to keep the myth he only heard of in 1954ish alive by suggesting he knew better than one of the people supposedly told the story by Tovey in 1941!
and by all subsequent serious historians
Now who is making things up, no historian parroting the myth has ever mentioned Paffard's informed comment? Only the widely-respected and award-winning Ludovic Kennedy reports his comments and Paffard who as a Paymaster and Tovey's secretary was selected for attention to detail and record keeping, makes no mention at all of being told the story in 1941.

Of Brockman:
being Pound secretary and he spoke to Brodhurst who then was the very first stating


stating absolutely nothing new about the story with no ascribed contribution from Brockman and even contradicting Tovey's memory about how the threat was transmitted. No quotes, no references, no citation. Valueless in a book about Pound.

I know there was a threat of Board of Inquiry, the letter I found and provided to everyone here proves that threat of B of I was the only threat.

Thank you for supplying the 1962 letter, I look forward to analysing it. At first glance it is full of "cracking" at Pound and quite a few hits on others. I would have loved to find the May 28th letter from Pound in 178/322 but it is not there. When (if) I find it, it will appear here.


For your interest, the rivalries and strongly held opinions influence all the RN players of the time. Tovey may have praised Charles Forbes but, as you will find out when you read, when Pound offered Forbes Tovey's services to become his 2nd in command Home Fleet, C-in-C Forbes wrote:

28th March 1940

"I do not want Tovey, to be honest I do not think he has sufficient brains."

Not mutual appreciation then. :D

As you attempt to besmirch Wake-Walker's reputation on the anniversary of the chase to the south, with unsustained and insubstantial charges of cowardice, I wonder how Tovey's shade looks down on you. His motive in wanting to keep the "Wake-Walker" business under wraps was clearly his concern for an innocent man unfairly victimized. No mention of Court Martials in this letter.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
Locked