The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

So no "Silver Bullet" then...………...for another two years. (What did I say P Gollin?) Who are you accusing of withholding material? :D
Surely someone had both recently surfaced letters available long before I had them in my hands
I don't understand your problem, are you complaining you have been encouraged to fabricate and enhance your Conspiracy Theory without this evidence that it was twaddle emerging earlier? Besides, we don't know how long you have had them in your hands. We know from an incautious comment from your co-author that you had Tovey's letter of the 30th "for a long time now" without mentioning its existence.

Since it is logical and fair to apply omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium
for Wake-Walker and Leach it should have been so for Pound as well, with only Tovey's unsubstantiated assertion of a Court Martial threat. A generation of writers have lazily perpetuated this myth without expending the least effort to verify it. Apart that is, from Kennedy, who should have believed Paffard and left it out of his otherwise scholarly work. Roskill, who had his own longstanding campaign against Pound's reputation, did not bother to look too hard into it.

As the principal defamer of Wake-Walker and Leach (a Couple of Cowards) onus probandi requires you to provide the evidence. All that you have shown so far has been easily dismissed by nearly all who have commented, including, if I understand him correctly, no lesser authority than Bill Jurens. You claim you have irrefutable and unanswerable evidence of their guilt, and then withhold it until you can sell it for fame and money.


I wish you success with your Tirpitz book. I hope it does not include the results of techniques you have used here.


All the best


wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

everything has been stated, found, presented, analyzed and demonstrated already ...
... Ad Abundantiam ...
Unless new Official documents, ... like the May 28th, 1941 letter from Adm Pound to Adm Tovey requesting to Adm Tovey the Board of Inquiry for the conduct while in action of RearAdm Wake-Walker and Capt Leach will be found, ... we do not need to waste everybody time and patience here in.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:58 pm Hello everybody,

everything has been stated, found, presented, analyzed and demonstrated already ...
So "...you got nothing..."
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Dunmunro,

End of January/ beginning February
From Alberto:
Hi Sean,
how do you know the "silver bullet" was in Kew ?

In any case, it is now in our hands, ready to provide a totally independent (from Tovey) source for the "regrettable" phone call between Tovey and Pound, and demonstrating that at least other 2 people had heard of it.
From Antonio:
point 6 is the " Silver Bullet " that will kill any " denier " definitively.

Now the truth cannot be hidden anymore in any way, .... it has been hidden for 77 years, ... and I think it has been long enough.

Obviously it's going to be a bit more than 77 years since it is going to remain hidden away...………………...unless. :cool:

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

of course, ... we have nothing, ...

... just a couple of Royal Navy Officers supposed to be scrutinized by a Board of Inquiry for their conduct while in action, ... most likely becoming soon a Court of Enquiry and ending as a Court Martial, ... that was stopped by the C. in C. Home Fleet reaction and after some discussions with the Royal Navy First Sea Lord ended up with some documents intentional alteration, ... an intentionally incorrectly written series of dispatches by the C in C H.F., ... the blessing and acceptance in writing by the Royal Navy Admiralty, the politicians and the Prime Minister of the incorrect statements, ... and at the end , .... a very nice King rewarding for everybody including the 2 Officers listed above that were previously the candidates to go under a Court Martial.

Everything well available to be read into the original Official documents anyone can still find into the UK archives.

Someone can still think that ... we have nothing, ... :wink:

I forgot, ... we also have some hooligans/deniers really irritated by all this that confirms the fact that we have in our hands something that disturbs them deeply when they think that it will be soon fully published.

Bye, Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
most likely becoming soon a Court of Enquiry and ending as a Court Martial,
At last, now we have acceptance there was no actual Court Martial threat we can move on.
after some discussions with the Royal Navy First Sea Lord ended up with some documents intentional alteration,
Right, so Pound is supposed to be in on the deception of
Royal Navy Admiralty, the politicians and the Prime Minister


Even although he knows the accused are dastardly cowards, because Tovey doesn't back him up, he decides to change his mind completely from doing what the PM wants and do the exact opposite and reward and promote them instead.

Once you put like that, it still sounds like complete twaddle. :lol:

I'm not surprised you're hanging on to that last bullet, they always say when your situation is utterly hopeless, you should save the last bullet for yourself.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

just as I have stated above :
... we also have some hooligans/deniers really irritated by all this that confirms the fact that we have in our hands something that disturbs them deeply when they think that it will be soon fully published.
… and it clearly shows.

Keep calm guys, ... do not worry, ... take a beer, ... sleep relaxed, ... we have " nothing ", ... :wink:


ADM_178_National_Archives.jpg
ADM_178_National_Archives.jpg (13.88 KiB) Viewed 1228 times

… and never forget this one …

Silver_Bullet.jpg
Silver_Bullet.jpg (17.51 KiB) Viewed 1228 times

... have a nice day, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

One of the many inaccurate suggestions enshrined in this jihad of misinformation is that Wake-Walker was somehow permanently booted upstairs to remove him from active operations:
We are talking the only RearAdm never to see his flag flying on any ship very soon after his performances, … but being promoted very often after a very convinient family marriage, … and becoming the only Admiral to be promoted even POST MORTEM …

The Third Sea Lord position, … surely was a place were his " personal characteristics " were not going to provide any problem on the sea real offensive operations, … and was going to guarantee his mouth and tongue being surely under full control.
However this betrays basic ignorance of the function of serving in the Board of Admiralty as, for instance. he replaced Sir Bruce Fraser in the Third Sea Lord role when that officer went back to sea and became Second-in-Command, Home Fleet and Flag Officer, 2nd Battle Squadron in June 1942, taking over as C-in-C the following year. He terminated Scharnhorst's career in that role. This kind of senior officer rotation was perfectly normal and Wake-Walker himself was reappointed to a sea command, but tragically suffered an early death.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

lets stick to the facts.

On the " regrettable aftermath " ( S. Roskill ) that this " Denmark Strait Saga " ( Sir H. Leach ) has been, there were 2 Royal Navy Officers involved : Capt. J.C. Leach and RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker.

Lets put aside for the moment Capt. Leach that died soon after on December 1941, … and focus on RearAdm Wake-Walker, … which name was mainly used as reference by many that were talking about the " Wake-Walker business " referencing this shameful series of events.

Everybody can read his biography and records and realize who he really was, and that will surely help the understanding of this particular situation too.

Lets remain on the recently surfaced declarations of Adm Tovey from his September 15th, 1941 letter to Adm Pound :
Tovey_about_WW_declarations.jpg
Tovey_about_WW_declarations.jpg (79.55 KiB) Viewed 1071 times
It does not take much to realize that Adm Tovey was referening to some declarations released by Wake-Walker that needed a " guard on his tongue " :
locking_unlocking_tongue.jpg
locking_unlocking_tongue.jpg (13.85 KiB) Viewed 1071 times

Now the question is : which declarations Adm Tovey was referencing to ?

It is very easy to answer this point, and I list the 2 most important " un-guarded " declarations in order of time :

1) The BBC interview declarations, on May 28th, 1941, when he declared to have know soon after 5 am that morning that the approaching warships on his bow where the BC1 battleships.

2) The 20.000 yards distance to Hood declared and signed to the Hood First board the last days of May 1941, changed to the 30.000 yards on August 12th, 1941 at the Hood second board, before the Admiralty accepted the whole Adm Tovey dispatches intentionally altered story on middle September 1941.

Those are the facts.

Without that distance change, and going to a Board of Inquiry with those initial declarations, anybody with a minimum level of military discipline knowledge can easily realize what was going to occur to RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker according to the Articles of War.

He was going to be in trouble not only for his career, but for much more than that.

Bismarck being sunk and Adm Tovey reaction, saved the day, ... otherwise those " problems " were going to come " accutely to the fore " just as Adm Pound declared to Adm Tovey in writing, ... and this was another fact.


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Eh?
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

... and this is the truth now available to be read into several Official documents available into the UK archives.

We all know that the Board of Inquiry was never called, ... the obvious and consequent Court Martial never started, ... many reports and documents have been intentionally either hidden, created or altered in order to change the reality ... enabling both Adm Tovey dispatches intentionally incorrect statements as well as their final acceptance by the Admiralty, ... and the final rewarding by the King.

As simple as that.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Sorry for my absence the last weeks, but the letter does just say that WW can keep his temper in case of being the relief of Phillips.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

I'm with Herr Nilsson
eh?

In what surely cannot be surpassed as his most pithy, devastating, concise, comprehensive deconstruction of your arguments so far, but mainly concise, he has left himself with only one diminution to go. Not including punctuation marks.

I prefer a more loquacious response:

First Tovey says Wake-Walker is great to work with, then he says he is outspoken, just as he is, which can create an unfortunate Impression. Impression, that is not to say he is wrong or careless with his words, but passion and commitment makes him emphatic and prepared to state unpalatable truths.

Just like:
I have no intention of ordering a B of I into the conduct of W-W and Leach under any circumstances
.

Then he says in such a responsible position as VCNS he could (future tense) and would (future tense) keep a guard on his tongue. There is no reference to anything he has said whatsoever. Then to finish off he says Wake-Walker has the brains and is a hard worker, both of which make him well-suited for the post. But Tovey says nice things about other candidates as well.

This unrelenting, unstinting paean of praise is sent to Dudley Pound who supposedly told the author he wanted Wake-Walker court-martialled for desertion of duty just 3 months previously. Is this evidence of Tovey's inability to remember really quite important things accurately over a period of a mere 90 days or, vastly more likely, that there never was a Court Martial threat, and that was something Tovey invented 10-20 years later.

I think "eh?" encapsulates all that perfectly. :D

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

of course, ... that was exactly the most important and precise statement contained on that letter between Adm Tovey and Adm Pound.

I just explained for the ones that like to realize what that statement meant, ... the reference details behind it.

Unless somebody thinks that it was referencing gossips about women or something else I saw invented here in on last years, ... those are the only possible references of some importance to be " referred to " in a discussion between Adm Tovey and Adm Pound on that period related to RearAdm Wake-Walker " verbal performances ".

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

It's just about WW's subordination.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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