The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "I now have evidence that Sir Dudley Pound wrote to John Tovey on the 28th May ie before Tovey returned to Scapa and in that letter there was a mention of a threat (of sorts) to Wake-Walker and Leach"
Hi Sean,
thanks, I do applaud your fairness for sharing this (additional) clear evidence of this threat, confirming again (if needed....) Tovey's full reliability ! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
thanks, I do applaud your fairness for sharing this (additional) clear evidence of this threat, confirming again (if needed....) Tovey's full reliability ! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Bye, Alberto
Umm no. Tovey makes mention of a ROOF message that was never sent. We also don't know the text of Pound's letter of 28 May.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Dunmunro wrote: "Umm no. Tovey makes mention of a ROOF message that was never sent."
Hi Duncan,
this thread is about the CMDS, not the ROOF signal (that was anyway actually sent, according to the former PM (Churchill) and to the HF CiC (Tovey) and not reported only according to redacted (espunged, according to the 1st Sea Lord, Pound) lists of messages....) :negative:

This May 28 evidence from Sean (Wadinga :clap: ) is just an additional one confirming the CMDS threat (and Tovey's memory about this "regrettable" but very obvious episode), inconvenient as it can be for you..... :D


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

As Duncan has observed we have confirmed Tovey UNreliability in that he described the non existent 28th ROOF signal which he always prioritized in his letters over the CMDS matter. His letter of the 30th which I reproduced in full unredacted form over on the fuel thread confirms there never was a "Shores of France" message, but it was something he muddled up in his mind and invented after the 30th May.

Now we come to the CMDS threat. I have given information that a letter of the 28th from Pound included a threat of some sort against W-W and Leach, not necessarily the CMDS which Tovey later recalled. I wish to be able to applaud your fairness in releasing those parts of the Roskill correspondence which do not support your case and which you have withheld up to now.
that you don't have yet, while we have...
It is pointless withholding this material. I will have it in time and your refusal to make it available now will just make your actions look more foolish in the future.

Is there comment on Pound's letter of the 28th?

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "...there never was a "Shores of France" message, but it was something he muddled up in his mind..."
Hi Sean,
you are just speculating. Both Churchill and Tovey wrote that a "towing" signal was sent on May 26 and, according to the CiC HF, Pound told "he was having it espunged" from the records. As already said to Dunmunro, I kindly ask you to use the right place (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246) for discussing the towing signals.



Back to the topic of the CMDS, I have already sincerely applauded you for the new evidence (your mentioned Pound letter on May 28), that would confirm again (if needed....) the total reliability of Tovey, when he spoke of the Court Martial to Roskill and to McMullen, as well as the correct interpretation of the whole story from Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones and Sir Henry Leach. :clap: :clap: :clap:

you wrote: "It is pointless withholding this material"
it is pointless to ask for any new info from me before having presented your public excuses for having accused me falsely (as confirmed by other members) to redact and hide information. Instead of the excuses, I see you insist in your very unfair accuses, that have already make your posts look much worse than "foolish" in the past.....

Therefore, good luck with your researches, possibly you will learn how to find evidences in the archives !



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Even new posters have observed on this ridiculous practice of trying to split up things covered in one phone call and one letter into individual threads. If Tovey's credibility on one matter is shown wanting then the other things he talks about in the same letter or the same phone call are equally questionable.
you are just speculating. Both Churchill and Tovey wrote that a "towing" signal was sent on May 26 and, according to the CiC HF, Pound told "he was having it espunged" from the records.
I notice even you cannot think up a reason to post on the fuel thread why Tovey forgot the "Shores of France" in his letter of the 30th May. I guess you are hoping it will just slip down the page into obscurity. Maybe Tovey expunged it from his own memory and then started remembering it again 10 years later. :lol:
Therefore, good luck with your researches, possibly you will learn how to find evidences in the archives
Thanks but I don't need your wishes

I have posted unredacted documents from Phillips and Tovey- you have chopped out material to suit your faltering case.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Sean,
despite your above mixed salad of irrelevant topics and complaints, not related with the thread subject, the Court Martial threat is not anymore in discussion, because we have all the evidences that Tovey was absolutely reliable when speaking of it (for the ROOF signal please stay here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246, for the ones who may be interested in it, I have just answered your question in the right place).



The Court Martial evidences are absolutely overwhelming but possibly, to use your words, you are hoping they will just slip down the page into obscurity. However, I will post them here below in order to allow any new poster to see them as the only logical conclusion of this thread:
Evidences_CMDS.jpg
Evidences_CMDS.jpg (126.06 KiB) Viewed 1397 times
You have yourself confirmed the Court Martial threat thanks to the (applauded) May 28 letter from Pound to Tovey (I see nobody is willing to give details or to post it ,.... why all this secrecy ? :lol: what is the letter saying more ? :wink: ):
you wrote: "I now have evidence that Sir Dudley Pound wrote to John Tovey on the 28th May ie before Tovey returned to Scapa and in that letter there was a mention of a threat (of sorts) to Wake-Walker and Leach."
There is no need of any other proof here.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

I wrote:

I now have evidence that Sir Dudley Pound wrote to John Tovey on the 28th May ie before Tovey returned to Scapa and in that letter there was a mention of a threat (of sorts) to Wake-Walker and Leach. Does anybody have the text of that letter?
I do not have the text of the 28th May letter. Do you have it, yes or no?

I have not yet found the 28th Letter in the National Archives. Further research may turn it up.

All the est

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "I do not have the text of the 28th May letter. Do you have it, yes or no? "
Hi Sean,
thanks for your admission, let's see if you are able to hold a fair discussion here (and it will be my last attempt with you, after your repeated and unsubstantiated accusations of hiding material....):


I have neither the text of the letter NOR the evidence of its existence, but I trusted what you say.


Would you mind to explain to everybody what is the "evidence" you claim to have about it ?
You mentioned the letter but you never told us anything about its source and content, and very surprisingly NOBODY in the forum seems to be willing to post the text, why all this secrecy ? What else is the letter saying ? What other points are treated in the letter ?.... :think:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Since you asked so nicely........................

The handwritten letter is difficult to read/photocopy but I will attach later. () indicates I cannot discern the word.

This letter was written on the 31st ie after Tovey has written his letter of the 30th and most importantly read Pound's of the 28th and received the phone call. I just got it last week. As you will see it confirms the threat, but of a Board of Inquiry, and Tovey reiterates that it will not happen. This confirms there was a threat, but apparently not of a CM. Until we get the letter of the 28th we will not know what Pound actually said. I think it was "What about a sham Board of Inquiry to satisfy Churchill's interference" .

You will also read Tovey correctly identifies political interference, despite apparently telling Bellairs in 1950 that he did not know it was Churchill. Another matter in which he misremembers in the 1950s.

Once the trivial matter of this not-very-serious proposal for a Board of Inquiry is disposed with, the bulk of the letter is chatty, friendly and gives additional details about taking on Tirpitz, developing radar and the need to hang on to experienced personnel, sympathy with ABC over the losses at Crete etc.

Enjoy.

Saturday 31st May 1941

My Dear First Sea Lord,
I have just received your letter of the 28th and am intentionally replying before I see Wake-Walker or Leach. Naturally, like you, I was hoping P of W might be able to re-engage before dark, possibly when the T/B attack was being made by “Victorious”. I knew, however that both W-W and Leach appreciated the necessity for further damage just as well as I did, and that neither would require the slightest encouragement to take risks if they thought it would help us to achieve the object of all of us, to sink the Bismarck or render her impotent to operate on our trade routes. In any case W-W in his reply to the Admiralty made his opinion perfectly clear, after that the responsibility for ordering P of W to re-engage was mine, and mine alone, unless TLs issued an order which I shall never cease to be thankful they did not.

I have no intention of ordering a B of I into the conduct of W-W and Leach under any circumstances but I am only too ready to submit to B of I or C M if Their Lordships see fit to order to enquire into my own actions.

We frequently have to curb our wish to interfere in politics, it is a very great pity politicians cannot be so strong minded when they become critical of our strategy or skill or our tactics. They have done more than enough harm surely in giving information of real value to the Hun – surely the mere fact that the Bismarck was sunk without the loss of another British life or damage to our ships was dramatic enough for anyone.

I refrain from objecting to dangerous talk and ideas when they do not affect directly me or my command but as long as I am in command of the H F I will not submit quietly to information being made public in any place if it endangers ships under my command or prejudices the success of their operations.

Apart from this one point may I say how very deeply I value your letter, and I am sure that you know the last thing I wish to do is to increase your very heavy burden but I must make my stand on this point.

The one thing I value above all is the confidence of my subordinate commanders, and I think you will agree that it was this confidence of officers in TLs and their CinC that was largely responsible for their magnificent work in this operation.

The RD/F question is most important, but we are inclined to attribute most of the jamming to the ship’s own wireless. The night before we got into action I told my COS I intended closing in end-on and that I was convinced the sight of our two ships charging at them would shake the nerves of enemy control officers and rangetakers. COS remarked but unfortunately it won’t affect the R D/F operator. Yesterday evening our own operator told me how fascinating it was to see on the screen our own projectiles going at the enemy, but that, to see the enemy projectiles coming towards him was not nearly so amusing. I now believe one of the reasons for the Bismarck’s shooting going off so soon was their operator was scared stiff by the sight of swarms of bullets approaching him from two directions at once and that quite likely he was the winner in the race to jump over the stress.

I am afraid Andrew is having a terribly trying time but if anyone can pull through he will. I am always trying to think of some way we could operationally relieve the strain on him, but I can’t find any unless the () gives us an opportunity like the other day. But I would recommend most strongly that the Bomber Command should operate at () to the maximum of its capacity and so possibly draw () air forces back from the Near East.

No ship could have stood up to the punishment Bismarck got from the guns of Rodney and KG V and I much doubt that any British ship would have taken the torpedo hits so comparatively lightly- but it is difficult to say without knowing how many times Bismarck was hit or where.
What really causes me concern is that I do not think one KG class ship can by herself be relied to defeat the Tirpitz . Their ships, in addition to excellent instruments & rangefinder glasses have the enormous advantage of being able to spend months training in the Baltic without restriction or embarrassment of any kind, nor, presumably are they constantly having officers and men shifted. I intend missing no opportunity for giving this ship the necessary opportunity for practices, but we are handicapped particularly at night. The limit of the Hun’s effective use of his R D/F appears to be about 24,000 yds: though I shall always seek close action. It would be of inestimable value if our R D/F could range at 30,000 yds and so improve our chances of getting in the first hit, particularly as the Tirpitz unless reduced in speed by T/Bs is almost certain to avoid close action. I urge very strongly that no effort should be spared to give us this increased R D/F range and that drafting from this ship, “The” battlefleet, should be absolutely stopped except by the consent of the Captain.

I am very sad at the loss of the Mashona, I feel it should not have happened, but I will write again after I have seen the () L O Coastal Command who is coming up to see me.

I grudge the FAA none of the credit they have been given, they deserve every bit of it, starting from Rotherham’s reconnaissance from Hataton [sic] but I deeply regret the Hun being given so much valuable information. Apart from anything else, it is encouraging him to include the “Graf Zeppelin” in the next sortie which would be most unfortunate.

I am extremely anxious that any future public references should emphasise as strongly as possible the absolutely devastating effect of our battleship’s gunfire, it was so, and the sailors in the Tirpitz will hate to hear about it. I would even recommend publishing my tribute, so unpopular in political circles, and rub in that it spite of such gallantry no human being could stand it and that even these brave men preferred drowning rather than remaining another instant in the ghastly inferno aboard what was, so short a time before, the pride and hope of the Nazi Navy “invincible and unsinkable”.

Yours very sincerely, even if a trifle obstinate,

Jack C Tovey

It is an established fact that a few hours before we got into action all the Polish midshipmen were found in the Blacksmith’s shop having their knives sharpened to a major edge.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

HI Sean,

:clap: :clap: :clap:

this time I must bow to your great fairness in posting this additional immensely interesting (for several aspects) letter, providing an incontrovertible proof that a threat to Leach and Wake-Walker was indeed not only menaced in a phone call, but even requested in a written (albeit private) letter.

I hope that now "D&S" will finally admit that "A&A" were right since the beginning about this "regrettable aftermath", that you have both tried to deny (starting even from the insinuation of Tovey "dementia" :shock: ), until Roskill books and papers + ADM 205/10 pages were highlighted and left no doubt (already before this letter, that confirms Tovey's full reliability on this specific matter even after some years).


you wrote (in another thread): "I believe I have your assurance that you have not seen the letter sent by Pound to Tovey dated 28th"
Yes, you do have. I hope someone will have it and will share it, following your fair example.


you wrote: "As you will see it confirms the threat, but of a Board of Inquiry"
In the May 28 letter it was apparently a Board of Inquiry (or a Court Martial for Tovey himself), in the phone call it was a CM (according to Tovey).
Not having yet formally decided how to proceed against the two officers, a B of I or a CM are in some way the same threat of carefully scrutinizing from a military viewpoint their "conduct" and it makes perfectly sense that Pound had written "only" about a B of I, while speaking at the phone, in a somehow "heated" discussion, he "dared" to pronounce the most frightening words for any officer..... :think:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

I have always suggested there was a germ to Tovey's misremembering, and now we have it. But the question was always whether there was a serious threat, and one postulated in a letter on the 28th and apparently scotched simply by Tovey's obstinacy on the 30th shows there never was. There is no evidence there ever was an investigation, and Tovey's chatty tone throughout the rest of the letter gives the lie to the suggestion that he needed to generate a vast and complicated conspiracy to change facts and evidence necessary to confound such an investigation.

There is no mention of the theatrical counter threat to resign from C-in-C Home Fleet to take up the victims' defence, just a plain refusal to countenance whatever Pound's proposal was. Since he specifically says he has not mentioned anything to Wake-Walker or Leach, it is clear he will let the matter die and expects acquiescence from Pound. We will never know what was in the phone call and only if the letter of the 28th comes to light will we know the precise details.

I have never suggested Tovey was suffering from dementia, merely that he exaggerated, based on Paffard's observation. A step up from a possible Board of Inquiry to a threat of CM would be just that. Imagining he received the "Shores of France" when there is no record it was ever sent would be just that. Telling people he didn't know politicians were directly involved when he had said the exact opposite to Pound would be just that kind of misremembering, not to mention a little show-boating over the suggestion such interference would be criticised in his Report.

Tovey's memory is thus proven extremely unreliable as both Roskill and Kennedy concluded. Unfortunately the need to hype the new publication meant that Kennedy promoted the story albeit with a healthy disclaimer.

Roskill showed no such scruples but still cited Kennedy.

Now, are you going to show us your silver bullet or are we going to have to wait for ever? :cool:

I presume your perusal of 250 pages of Roskill's file did not find this Tovey letter of 31st May? Do we conclude Roskill never saw it?

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
It is interesting to note Tovey's comment 'What really causes me concern is that I do not think one KG class ship can by herself be relied to defeat the Tirpitz'. As Tirpitz was in most respects very similar to Bismarck is he suggesting that the decision for PoW not to fully re-ingage with Bismarck was correct? Furthermore,given his statement that no ship would have stood up the pounding handed out by KGV and Rodney, was it a tacit admission that the new 14" gunned battleships were not up to the job of tackling a heavily armoured 15"/16" gunned ships on a one to one basis which other Navies had? Granted that with the possible exception of the Yamoto's there were probably no other ships in any Navy that would have stood up to sustained 14"/16" fire at point blank range, but I had always thought that the KGV's were a quite good design of a ship and well armoured, but would have been better off with the tried and trusted 8x15" in four turrets, However,the judgement by a senior Admiral that cast doubt on their fighting ability against a similarly sized opponent has now clouded my view. Am I correct in my summary or do I not know what I am talking about?
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "the letter gives the lie to the suggestion that he needed to generate a vast and complicated conspiracy to change facts "
Hi Sean,
now that you admit that the threat was actually happening, it should not be difficult to understand that, after such a threat ALL the subsequent reports were written in a way NOT to give any space to any further critic. If you consider such a threat as a "joke" it means you don't understand what a Court Martial means for an officer.... :negative:

This is more than enough to explain all the changes and all the embellishments done in the so called "official reports".

you wrote: "There is no evidence there ever was an investigation"
:shock:
The evidence has already been posted, in clear letters, from ADM 205/10 from A. V. Alexander (1st Lord), inconvenient as it can be for you. :negative:



you wrote: " he specifically says he has not mentioned anything to Wake-Walker or Leach"
....yet....(before seeing them).
Looking at the reports written by them, I would bet that they were duly informed NOT to expose themselves..... :think:


you wrote: "I have never suggested Tovey was suffering from dementia, merely that he exaggerated, based on Paffard's observation. "
... and thanks to your May 31 letter, we know that he was not and that Paffard insinuation was absolutely deprived of any foundation.... Tovey's memory about this aspect is proven further to be 100% reliable (if Roskill judgement was not enough...). :dance:

you wrote: "are you going to show us your silver bullet or are we going to have to wait for ever? "
I'm afraid I have promised to another forum member (who was so kind to provide it to me), not to distribute it AND not to give any info about it.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

The only CM threat I see in that letter is from Tovey, who, in effect, dares the Admiralty to CM him. The Admiralty also, apparently, requested that Tovey conduct a BofI into Leach and WW. He refused and that was, apparently, the end of the matter. Years later Tovey seems to have greatly embellished the story.
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