The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
neither the Cout Martial attempt nor the " Towing signal " has been mentioned into Adm Tovey dispatches
It would be difficult to mention the Court Martial attempt since it happened (if it happened at all) after the period covered by the dispatches. None of the other stupid ROOF signals to Tovey's detached units are mentioned.

Now we have the umpteenth tedious reposting of the redacted version of Tovey's letter, in which the first thing and therefore first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it. In four letters in total, CMDS is only mentioned at all in two. It was obviously not significant for Tovey, I believe because he knew it was not a real threat and whatever was said was uttered thoughtlessly in a heated argument about the ROOF signal which is what Tovey was really peeved about. ROOF was what he kept on about for 11 years.

That these letters largely witter on about an imagined instruction to continue to the "Coasts of France" shows that Pafford's assertion that Tovey misremembered and exaggerated was absolutely spot-on, and applied as early as 1950. Just because Roskill found Tovey personable during his researches, does not mean his information was at all accurate.

Alberto has tried to muddle things with
11 rows are dedicated to point 1, the towing signal
35 rows are dedicated to the Court Martial threat (I have posted them entirely, see above)
But since the 35 rows include the whole theatrical "Rule of 3" presentation of the author's heroic stand, against the might of Admiralty (I want-no, I really, really want-no, I really, really, really want-NO!............. Oh. OK then- I give up) is this significant? Whereas somewhere in the redacted 11 lines is described the First Sea Lord, dripping with gold braid, imperious in his Majesty, having to apologise to his underling for the "stupidest signal ever sent", eat a bakery-full of humble pie and promise to do the impossible........... ie expunge the inexpungeable.

As self-attested experts on naming and shaming I would hope you would add those authors who have lazily parroted the CMDS story without adding the Kennedy caveats and Pafford's reservations about his former boss's memory failings. Churchill has always been a controversial figure and most of these accounts were written during the period when kicking against his deification was most fashionable. Not bothering with further detail about such a hazy insubstantial threat was acceptable because there was no harm done. The potential victims were instead rightly lauded for their efforts, loaded with honours and continued to give good service to the RN to the end of their days.

As recent deveolpments have shown there is much to learn about CMDS.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it.....Alberto has tried to muddle things..."
Totally unable to understand what you read, ungrateful and shameless....as in all your last posts... :stop:

Go to get the documents (spending your money instead of begging for someone else to post them) ! :kaput:


Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

it seems to me obvious that the TRUTH is annoying and disturbing someone lately.

For me, ... as I wrote above, ... this case is CLOSED and the Court Martial attempt well proven.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

If its closed you won't need to post here again.

Alberto, I'm disappointed, haven't I effusively thanked you in the past and I'm confused - are you offering to sell me the truth? Maybe I will sign the non disclosure in Cambridge and find out what the 11 lines say instead of guessing.
somewhere in the redacted 11 lines is described the First Sea Lord, dripping with gold braid, imperious in his Majesty, having to apologise to his underling for the "stupidest signal ever sent", eat a bakery-full of humble pie and promise to do the impossible........... ie expunge the inexpungeable.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "haven't I effusively thanked you......first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious, if Alberto had not removed it.....Alberto has tried to muddle things...the redacted version of Tovey's letter..."
You thanked me.... and then you accuse me.... I'm not disappointed, I'm disgusted by your tactic.
You are just shameless and ungrateful, in your ridiculous attempt to deny any evidences. :kaput:

I do hope you will be able and willing to get some new info before opening your mouth again on this subject... :quiet:


Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

I really don't see why you are so het-up. :shock:
Wadinga wrote: "Did you remove the reference to the towing signal when you reproduced the 1961 letter leaving 1)
Hi Sean,
yes I did,
So you freely admit withholding the 11 lines. :? This surely accepts that you have redacted Tovey's letter.

Because you apparently think that part of a single phone conversation referencing the ROOF signal has nothing to do with that part of the same conversation relating to an imagined CMDS? Surely it is you constantly accusing me of getting "annoyed" about things as they come to light. It is indeed inconvenient for your supposition that Tovey talks first in this case and in several letters only about ROOF, and particularly the "Shores of France" which as far as we can tell was never said to him.

I also cannot see why you are so sensitive- giving details of the 35 lines relating to CMDS, whilst witholding 11 lines about ROOF. Sure finding out what words are in it it may knock a massive hole in the whole CMDS and hence the Conspiracy Theory but,
it seems to me obvious that the TRUTH is annoying and disturbing someone lately
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "....first priority is the ROOF signal which would be obvious :negative: , if Alberto had not removed it :kaput: .....Alberto has tried to muddle things :negative: ....the redacted :?: version of Tovey's letter..."
and then:
he wrote: "I really don't see why you are so het-up" :think:
No comment is needed from my side, excuses are just due from his side, as he insists to insinuate that I have hidden info, despite someone at the top of this page fairly tried to warn him that he was simply WRONG (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728&p=77124#p77077).


I just remind him the topic of this thread, apparently not yet understood, looking at the "well concocted fruit salad" he proposes all the time, mixing Crete with Denmark Strait and the Court Martial with the towing signal.....

The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

kindly reminding him that there is another thread where we have posted the relevant passages of Tovey's letters regarding the towing signal and where some new interesting discussion is going on: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Cag
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Wadinga, thanks, I'll try to post the relevant facts, the first bit is about the message and generally repeats what we know. Again to be fair to Alberto he has given, as far as I can tell from my notes, the CM threat wording correct.

I would therefore have to agree that this thread is regarding the CM for the Denmark Strait. But then with the caveat that it is also not about Wake-Walkers use of his cruisers during the chase, or during the action, or thereafter. It is also not about Leach disengaging on the morning of the 24th, his reasons or his accurate report or that of his Gunnery officer. These are not related to the CM threat and nor is the cabinet correspondance regarding the various meetings and house keeping.

We have found Toveys letters that confirm he talks of a phone call that threatened Wake-Walker and Leach with a court martial for not re-engaging Bismarck after Hood was sunk. Tovey threatened to resign and no more was heard. That is the story of the DS CM thread.

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Cag,
Hi Wadinga, thanks, I'll try to post the relevant facts, the first bit is about the message and generally repeats what we know.
Thank you please do so, as far as you are able to.
Again to be fair to Alberto he has given, as far as I can tell from my notes, the CM threat wording correct.
And I have recorded my my profound appreciation for him having done so.
I would therefore have to agree that this thread is regarding the CM for the Denmark Strait.
Yes it is, and therefore material that allows us to test the validity of Tovey's assertion about CMDS must also be tested here. Specifically the redacted 1st paragraph related to the non existent "Shores of France" signal, which dominates Tovey's writing to Roskill over the years, and seems to have been the first matter discussed in the single phone call.

The thematic separation of events which were happening simultaneously to the same individuals is a contrivance which may appear superficially attractive to the ordered mind, but is actually logically indefensible . In one phone call, presumably Pound first congratulated Tovey, Tovey then turned on Pound who had to abjectly apologise for the ridiculous 1137B ROOF signal and lastly there may have been some reference to a threat of Court Martial. It is ludicrous to pretend that the contents of a single conversation can be dismembered and treated separately as if they have no effect on one another. It is a whole.

It is clear that what Pound expected to be a highly agreeable and congratulatory back slapping conversation where he first would first laud Tovey and Tovey would then say he could not have done it without Pound's interventions, turned unpleasant and accusatory very quickly. Pound had immediately to be defensive over the 1137B signal, which he did not admit at the time was Churchill's and not his fault. We do not have verbatim what the CMDS threat was, but only Tovey's description recorded many years after.

Now a proposal for a new, valuable, thread and not desperate attempts to divert attention from CMDS. The Lutjen's Long Signal and the faulty D/F position thread.

Overarching this conversation, and the unmentioned Elephant in the room, was the matter of the faulty D/F position. It is not mentioned in the phone call at all, or in any version of Tovey's Report, yet it is an enormous bone of contention between the two men. Was it faulty work at the Admiralty or faulty work in Tovey's flagship?

If anybody, anywhere was going to get Court Martialled it would be Fleet Navigator Frank Lloyd who apparently in a tyro's mistake misplotted bearings and sent Tovey on a wild goose chase which almost let Bismarck get away. If there is any cover up this is it, and the thousands of hours we have wasted here on a fabricated Conspiracy Theory generated for motives best left moot, have left this uninvestigated. Did the Admiralty supply muddled bearings which Lloyd resolved away to the north? Are the signals referring with these bearings in the signal listing? Did Tovey's high-handed instructions preclude the Admiralty at least providing their estimated position to compare with that generated by Lloyd?

Was there, perhaps in this same phone call, an unrecorded conversation where Tovey accused Pound of sending him faulty information? Did Pound accuse Tovey of incompetence in his team in using this vital intelligence? Is this a matter that nobody recorded because both parties blamed each other and it signposted a critical failure in RN intelligence handling?

The matter of CMDS remains open for new information.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinag wrote: "The matter of CMDS remains open for new information."
Sure, it remains open, stay tuned and you will surely see even more, I can guarantee you..... :lol:

For the time being, the Court Martial threat is so well proven by Tovey letters, Tovey conversation with McMullen, Roskill statements in his books (+ other historians), ADM 205/10 papers and Sir Henry Leach confirmation (in addition to the intentional alteration of the official reports to counter it, of course), that the "new information" must now come from your side... if you are able to find any to counter all the above ones.... :think:


Bye, Alberto
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"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

I used the search to see whether you just cut and paste this stuff but you actually type it all
For the time being, the Court Martial threat is so well proven by Tovey letters, Tovey conversation with McMullen, Roskill statements in his books (+ other historians), ADM 205/10 papers and Sir Henry Leach confirmation (in addition to the intentional alteration of the official reports to counter it, of course), that the "new information" must now come from your side... if you are able to find any to counter all the above ones...
When you could just say Tovey asserts. All the rest is just unqualified, unresearched repetition.

Worth repetition IMHO is
therefore material that allows us to test the validity of Tovey's assertion about CMDS must also be tested here. Specifically the redacted 1st paragraph related to the non existent "Shores of France" signal, which dominates Tovey's writing to Roskill over the years, and seems to have been the first matter discussed in the single phone call.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "I used the search to see whether you just cut and paste this stuff..."
Sorry you were disappointed, I'm not so lazy as you are not getting the information before speaking.

you wrote: "When you could just say Tovey asserts. All the rest is just unqualified, unresearched repetition. "
I would have liked to see Roskill reaction to your FALSE statement above. He did researches, he investigated into the Court Martial (as well as into the "shores of France" signal, btw).... and he confirmed it as reliable in his books. :negative:

I would have liked to see you telling McMullen and Blake they were unable to understand that their guest (Tovey) was "stoned" when speaking with them and mentioning the Court Martial. :negative:

I would have loved to see you daring to tell Pound, Alexander and ....Churchill that they all misunderstood the "certain aspects" requiring further info when they wrote papers in ADM 205/10. :negative:


Apparently you are a better historian that Roskill, you know Tovey better than Blake and McMullen, you have better information than Sir Henry Leach about his father and the RN standards, and you are better informed than Pound, Alexander and Churchill .... :clap:


Congratulations for making again a fool of yourself, speaking about things you don't understand and not presenting a single evidence to disprove them.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

It is you who brought the evidence to light, proving Tovey was remembering things that never happened from 1950 onwards. :wink: Roskill knew very well Tovey was remembering things that never happened which is why he never published them until he could cite Kennedy. By bluffing over Kennedy over Tovey's memory, he ensured this scurrilous story made it into print, so he could quote it himself. Like many others he left out Kennedy's carefully researched caveats.
in one letter (1962), Tovey wrote to Roskill that the text was:
"if necessary she is to be pursued right up to the shores of France, even if the K:G.V. has to be towed home"

in another letter to Bellairs (1950) Tovey said it was: "you are to continue the pursuit right up to the shores of France even if you have to be towed home"

in another letter to Roskill (1954) Tovey says that the message was "ordering me to continue the chase up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. had to be towed back"

Finally in the "Court Martial" letter from December 1961, Tovey wrote that the message was: "you are to continue the pursuit right up the coast of France, even if it means your ship being towed back"
that their guest (Tovey) was "stoned"
Nobody has said he was stoned/senile/suffering from dementia. (Well maybe somebody did in a moment of exasperation) This is your exaggeration for tactical effect. Tovey's exaggeration, noted by his former secretary, Pafford, was going on and on about a signal he never received about the Shores of France for 11 years.

Where does Roskill confirm the "Shores of France"? He never mentioned it in Naval policy between the Wars, he never mentions it in Churchill and the Admirals.
and he confirmed it as reliable
He only repeats what his source Kennedy says. He does not repeat the "Shores of France" because he knew Tovey's memory was unreliable, because the signal doesn't exist and could not possibly be expunged. Roskill knew that.

Where does Churchill write about CMDS in 205/10 without told before hand that he was still supposed to be interested? Pound and Alexander had clearly forgotten all about whatever the report was supposed to be about, until Sir R Brockman guessed it was something to do with Leach.
Apparently you are a better historian that Roskill
Please, please you're too kind :oops: However, I don't have the axe to grind that Roskill did over the pre-war incident pom-pom incident in Warspite, and Brodhurst is clear that the author of War at Sea is often less than fair to Pound. Stephen Roskill. unlike Tovey, clearly has no scruples about "whacking" a dead man, especially when he can offload the responsibility for checking the veracity onto Kennedy. And ignore the results when he does.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Tovey was remembering things that never happened from 1950 onwards"
Not at all, but if you want to discuss this topic go here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246. I will be glad to answer in the right place and explain you that Tovey memory was quite good.

Roskill, being a serious historian, unlike you, kept the CM and the "shores of France" signal separated, he confirmed in his books one (the Court Martial, for your displeasure :lol: ).

This thread is about "The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait" and your obstinacy to mix everything together is just revealing that you have no arguments to propose, despite my request to you to try to stay to the topic and despite other forum members have suggested you to do the same. :negative:
I'm very sad to see that a member who contributed so much to this forum in the past, has now reduced his posts to a stubborn trolling, denying to accept what he cannot discuss anymore, and loosing time to write verbose (very selom documented) posts instead of proposing something new.

you wrote: "He only repeats what his source Kennedy says."
Again, avoid intentionally FALSE statements just to try to deny evidence. I'm tired to post again your shame but you force me to do so: Roskill is not quoting Kennedy here, he explain why Kennedy has published first what he passed to Kennedy, confirming him Tovey reliability against Kennedy (and yours) insinuations, in the letter below that annoys you so much.
Roskill_Naval_Policies_Vol2_464.jpg
Roskill_Naval_Policies_Vol2_464.jpg (127.9 KiB) Viewed 1080 times
Roskill to Kennedy_13-09-1973.jpg
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you wrote: "Where does Churchill write about CMDS in 205/10"
Still unable to read such a clear document ?
ADM205/10 proves that there were "certain aspects", minuted at War Cabinet 56th 1941, that were under scrutiny in the Bismarck Operation from a military point of view, as Roskill clearly says in his "Churchill and the Admirals", speaking about the Court Martial.
Also, it makes explicit that these aspects were related to the retreat of the PoW in front of the enemy. Had you served in any Navy, you would know that such a behavior, if considered "improper", is a Court Martial automatic very serious imputation.
Please don't try to say that the First Sea Lord, the First Lord and the Prime Minister were all mislead by Brockman, it's just ridiculous. :negative:
ADM 205/10 also mentions (pag.332, within the Barnes' answer to Tovey's despatches) Wake-Walker's decision not to re-engage, as being another debatable (and thus strictly analyzed) aspect before the final approval.

Do you need me to re-post all these pages, explaining you what they mean ?


you wrote: "Stephen Roskill. unlike Tovey, clearly has no scruples about "whacking" a dead man"
As any good historian, having Tovey asked him not to publish the letter, he waited after Tovey's death, but then finally had ..... to tell the truth ! I have already explained that dead men are not immune from the history judgement just because of their death. :negative:
Tovey_Roskill_Court_Martial_1961.jpg
Tovey_Roskill_Court_Martial_1961.jpg (111.62 KiB) Viewed 1080 times
BTW, Roskill is not the only one trusting Tovey. Correlli-Barnett and Rhys-Jones do the same and they repeat and quote.... Roskill, not Kennedy..... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
Do you need me to re-post all these pages, explaining you what they mean ?
I know what they mean and you keep posting the same material with your same highly biased interpretations. BTW Did you know you left Paragraph one out of the Tovey letter again? :o

The June 2nd War Cabinet minutes do not specify what certain matters are, do they? When the secretary of the War Cabinet contacted Brockman after (nearly) two whole months had gone by, there is no indication he said what he wanted, and even asked whether there was some report coming at all. The June 2nd minutes not only do not mention these two fine officers or any displeasure with tactics, but refer only to the BBC report criticising naval gunnery. About which nothing apparently was done either.

It was Brockman who surmised that it must be something to do with Leach. "it appears that......... means I am guessing here sir, do you know what they want?" Pound does not say he will defend Leach and Wake-Walker, in fact he does not mention them at all. Then he does nothing again. Precisely as he described to Somerville: Listen to Churchill rant, don't be a brick wall, say "whether or not he was correct", say there will be a report in due time. Forget all about it............ because Churchill will have flitted off to something else and forgotten about it. Standard operating procedure.

I suspect Alexander's heavy handed and full description was to remind the PM he had been carrying on in this "childish" (Pound's words not mine) manner, four whole months previously. About the same Captain Leach he had been so matey-matey with across the Atlantic. Then he laid it on thick with the Board of Admiralty's fulsome praise to embarrass Churchill further. :D Alexander was a Labour party man, Not a Tory like the PM. It's called taking the p*ss with a straight face.

BTW how come you can
explain you that Tovey memory was quite good
when someone who worked with him for several years and thus much longer than Roskill, said it wasn't? All the letters you paraphrased clearly show his memory was terrible from 1950 onwards.

Roskill only confirms what he had Kennedy say for him, because he knew it was likely to be as inaccurate as he already knew the "Shores of France" was. If contradicting information came out, say from someone who worked closely with Pound and knew that when he sent "admirable" to Wake-Walker, that he never changed his mind afterwards, Roskill could blame Kennedy.

BTW Go see a movie- Gary Olman as Churchill in Darkest Hour. Imagine him raging about "Troubridge" , quite forgetting that unlike Leach, Troubridge was not shot at, was not blown up and rendered unconscious, did not have his guns falling to pieces and therefore Leach was not comparable to Troubridge in any way. I imagine by Monday 26th May Churchill had realised it too, for there is no evidence he ever mentioned the matter again.

All the best

wadinga
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