The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote: "But this contradicts Tovey's statement that he had mentioned it just to 3 persons"
Hi Marc,
well, no it doesn't. We don't know what Tovey actually told to W_W and Leach, asking for their reports.

He could possibly have mentioned just an Admiralty investigation re. "certain aspects" or "just" a BofI threat (as per May 31 letter), not necessarily to have told them the full "background" about the heated phone call when even a Court Martial was menaced .


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@Alberto

The same applies to you:
Herr Nilsson wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:08 pm That means you have no evidence, but just speculation.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,
you are right.....not having the registration of the conversations......but Tovey statements are NOT necessarily contradictory as per your statement. :negative:

We do have the letters, the ADM files and the intentional alteration of reports: IMO they are more than enough (and much more credible than the innocent errors, the typos and the memory failures....).


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

But the "intentional alteration of reports" is speculation as well.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,
as well as "typos" and "dementia" are.....but the intentional alteration is a bit more conceivable in real life, due to the proven threat.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

No, that are just different possible explanations. The "cover up" storyline ist just ONE explanation and it's not the most probable one.

Your "evidence" for the so called "cover up" is no evidence at all, it's just "cum hoc ergo propter hoc".
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,

I disagree: intentional alterations to reports are the most logic consequence of such a threat, while "typos" and "memory failures" are just too easy excuses to explain the inconsistencies..... but I have to accept your personal different interpretation of "innocent errors" and "misrememberings".


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto, I have no problem accepting that you and Antonio prefer your speculation. I just wondered, if there is any evidence that WW and Leach knew about Pound's request at all, and obviously there is none.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Marc,

as well as I have no problem accepting that you prefer the "typos" and "memory failures" excuses.

I agree we have published no evidence (yet :wink: ) of "how much" actually Tovey told to W-W, Leach and/or others. For sure the reports were prepared the way they were.....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:29 pm Hi Marc,

as well as I have no problem accepting that you prefer the "typos" and "memory failures" explanation.
I agree we don't have any evidence of "how much" actually Tovey told to W-W and Leach. For sure the reports were written the way they were.....


Bye, Alberto
Exactly and without the logical fallacy of confusing necessity with sufficiency the way the reports were written is no proof for you "cover up"-storyline.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:29 pm I agree we have published no evidence (yet :wink: ) of "how much" actually Tovey told to W-W, Leach and/or others. For sure the reports were prepared the way they were.....
You altered your last post. I'm confused you changed you mind within minutes. Is this just a bluff or the infamous "silver bullit"?
Last edited by Herr Nilsson on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

I am very curious to know what is your interpretation of what happened, ... since we have explained our one, ... now it is your turn to tell us what is the reason why the reports have been altered the way they have been according to you.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote: "Is this just a bluff or the infamous "silver bullit"?"
Hi Marc,
no, it's not a bluff and yes it is the "Silver Bullet".....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@Antonio

The question is, if they were altered at all. My oldest daughter had to write a paper for school about the golden lion tamarin. It was quite funny to see how she had to decide between conflicting data.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:57 pm
Herr Nilsson wrote: "Is this just a bluff or the infamous "silver bullit"?"
Hi Marc,
no, it's not a bluff and yes it is the "Silver Bullet".....


Bye, Alberto
OK, and why do you write "we don't have any evidence" at first?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Locked