The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see that you still like to play dummy and avoid to admit that those 2 Officers were in deep troubles on May 31st, 1941.

So, let me make my question more simple.

From what you can read on the above May 31st, 1941 letter, Adm Pound was proposing to Adm Tovey :

1) A recognition or award ( medals ) for Wake-Walker and Leach conduct in action.

2) An initiative to verify wheter or not there was a misconduct in action by those 2 Officers with all related consequences.

By simply reading Adm Tovey response in writing to Adm Pound it should be fairly easy to answer now.

What is your position, the number 1 or number 2 ?

A simple answer will suffice and that is all I need to close this debate.

Bye Antonio :D
1) If they were in 'deep trouble' for cause, at the very least, they would have been removed from their commands and banished to obscurity which is a punishment that the Admiralty could inflict on any officer at it's pleasure. That this didn't happen and in fact the officers were given accolades instead gives us a good idea of what a BofI would have done.

2) The action resulted in the loss of Hood and a sharp defeat for the RN. Naturally there were calls for a BoFI and IMHO, there should have been one to ascertain all the facts. Tovey was pointing out, quite correctly, that he was in overall command, and that any BofI would have to include him, as the officers in tactical command were operating with his authority and approval.

We simply cannot determine what scope or focus a BofI would have had. But it's entirely wrong to suppose that it would have focused solely on finding fault which is why there is no "yes or no" answer to your query.

As for who the 'dummy' is I have to ask you why no other historian has ever found fault with Leach or W-W's actions?
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

still playing dummy as far as I can see.

What does this sentence mean in English language :
I have no intention of ordering a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker and Leach under any circumstances ...
Is it clear for you now that the conduct of both Wake-Walker and Leach was the subject of the initiative request from Adm Pound.

Are you able to realize the meaning of this phrase or not ?

There is no way in this world for anybody to refuse that both Wake-Walker and Leach were the subject of the Admiralty initiative on the May 31st, 1941 letter exchange between Adm Pound and Adm Tovey.

Simply because it is clearly written in English language understandable almost for everybody.

The subject of the Admiralty attention for those 2 Officers was their conduct ( as clearly stated ), ... and not to reward them with medals, ... but to analyze a potential misconduct while in action.

The case is closed.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

still playing dummy as far as I can see.

What does this sentence mean in English language :
I have no intention of ordering a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker and Leach under any circumstances ...
Is it clear for you now that the conduct of both Wake-Walker and Leach was the subject of the initiative request from Adm Pound.

Are you able to realize the meaning of this phrase or not ?

There is no way in this world for anybody to refuse that both Wake-Walker and Leach were the subject of the Admiralty initiative on the May 31st, 1941 letter exchange between Adm Pound and Adm Tovey.

Simply because it is clearly written in English language understandable almost for everybody.

The subject of the Admiralty attention for those 2 Officers was their conduct ( as clearly stated ), ... and not to reward them with medals, ... but to analyze a potential misconduct while in action.

The case is closed.

Bye Antonio :D
Again a BofI establishes facts.

Tovey was CiC of the RN Home Fleet. He was at sea exercising command of his squadron and was in overall command of all forces engaged in the hunt for Bismarck. This is a more relevant extract from his letter rather than the too narrow extract that you choose:
I knew, however that both W-W and Leach appreciated the necessity for further damage just as well as I did, and that neither would require the slightest encouragement to take risks if they thought it would help us to achieve the object of all of us, to sink the Bismarck or render her impotent to operate on our trade routes. In any case W-W in his reply to the Admiralty made his opinion perfectly clear, after that the responsibility for ordering P of W to re-engage was mine, and mine alone, unless TLs issued an order which I shall never cease to be thankful they did not.

I have no intention of ordering a B of I into the conduct of W-W and Leach under any circumstances but I am only too ready to submit to B of I or C M if Their Lordships see fit to order to enquire into my own actions.
Tovey was happy to have a BofI or even dares a CM as long as that inquiry acknowledged that he was CinC and bore the ultimate authority and thus responsibility for what transpired. We then hear no more about this until Tovey writes his private letters, post war.

The case is dismissed before it can ever go to trial because it fails even the prima facie test that there was wrong doing.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Duncan,
you wrote: "Again a BofI establishes facts."
Again....as does any trial on earth, including a Court Martial....but, in this case, it's clear that the military conduct of Leach and Wake-Walker was the aspect to be examined, not the Hood explosion, not the British gunnery performances nor the Bismarck resilience.... :kaput:

you wrote : "The case is dismissed before it can ever go to trial because it fails even the prima facie test that there was wrong doing."
No. Had Bismarck been left free to raid in Atlantic, both would have been surely Court-Martialled and, IMHO, sentenced, Tovey willing or not. :negative:
Instead, with Bismarck finally sunk without further losses, the "certain aspects" that still, "prima facie, required explanation" were addressed by a sugar-coated version of facts presented by Tovey and pragmatically accepted at the highest levels.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see that nothing will change your stubborn and blind opinion, ... just like in other cases.

You wrote :
"The case is dismissed before it can ever go to trial because it fails even the prima facie test that there was wrong doing."
If that was the case, we were not going to find and read for more than 75 years the alteration of the reports and the ridiculous Hood 2nd board call, ... the shameful acceptance of the false Tovey dispatches by the Admiralty ... and all the rest we have seen and we have in our hands today.

You can live with your opinion, ... the facts are now available for everybody to realize what they really did.

I just wanted to see and realize how deep you can go ...

Again, ... this case now is closed as far as I am concerned.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

You are surely not still promoting the ludicrous idea that the second Hood Inquiry was purely to allow misleading evidence to be presented to ..............somebody? Both Tovey and Pound were supposedly in on the deception, who exactly were they supposed to be deceiving?

Surely we are not going back to the very nadir of your desperate imaginings where you alleged Wake-Walker had Phillips removed from command of Norfolk 14 whole months later, because he didn't confirm some guesswork distance at the enquiry? :lol:

VCNS Tom Phillips:

"the report contains the findings of the Court, but not the evidence on which those findings are based...unfortunately it transpired that no shorthand notes of the evidence were taken. At my request, however, the Court have produced a summary of evidence ... This summary is, I understand, compiled from short notes kept by members of the Court at the time. This matter of the blowing up of the "HOOD" is one of the first importance to the Navy. It will be discussed for years to come and important decisions as to the design of ships must rest on the conclusions that are arrived at. This being so, it seems to me that the most searching inquiry is necessary in order to obtain every scrap of evidence we can as to the cause of the explosion. I regret to state that in my opinion the report as rendered by this Board does not give me confidence that such a searching inquiry has been carried out; in particular the failure to record the evidence of the various witnesses of the event strikes me as quite extraordinary. It may be that in years to come ... our successors may wish to look back at the records of the loss of the HOOD, and it is in the words of those who actually saw the event rather than in the conclusions drawn by any Committee that they would be likely to find matter of real value. In my view the matter is of such importance that a further Board of Inquiry should be held; that all who witnessed the blowing up should be interrogated. I also note that of the three survivors from the HOOD only one was interviewed. This strikes me as quite remarkable. I propose, therefore, that a further Board of Inquiry should be assembled as soon as possible and that the necessary witnesses should be made available. At this enquiry every individual in every ship present who saw the HOOD at or about the time of the blowing up should be fully interrogated."
"The case is dismissed before it can ever go to trial because it fails even the prima facie test that there was wrong doing
The case is actually dismissed because the First Sea Lord, supreme commander of the Royal Navy, has so little conviction in the truth of the Prime Minister's ignorant and uninformed assessment, that he gives up the entire idea at the very first sign of resistance.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "The case is actually dismissed because the First Sea Lord, supreme commander of the Royal Navy, has so little conviction in the truth of the Prime Minister's ignorant and uninformed assessment, that he gives up the entire idea at the very first sign of resistance."
:negative: As I have already written to Mr.Dunmunro,
the case was dismissed ONLY because of the outcome of the operation (based on the mere result of it).

Had Bismarck been left free to raid in Atlantic, both Leach and Wake-Walker would have been surely Court-Martialled for their actions and, IMHO, sentenced, Tovey willing or not. The CiC HF himself would have been in trouble, in this case.

Instead, with Bismarck finally sunk without further losses, the "certain aspects" that still, "prima facie, required explanation" were simply addressed by a sugar-coated version of facts presented by Tovey (based on altered reports, expressly prepared) and pragmatically accepted at the highest levels in the RN and in the Government (and this is well proven in ADM 205/10 despite all denial attempts).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

it is funny to see the different destiny of RearAdm Wake-Walker and Capt Phillips.

The first one defended by the Admiralty on the many occasions he " demonstrated " his naval competences, ... going from being subject to a court martial to a medal in few weeks, ... than into the Admiralty ... and even promoted post mortem ... :shock: ... which I think is the only case I know so far.
Poor Capt Philiips only wanted to state the truth as he was supposed to do, ... to somebody that did not want to listen to it, ... and paid the price for his obstinacy.
This is what the " big wheels " are able to do on a life, ...

While the Bismarck being sunk was of course the main reason why the case was loosing its importance for WSC, ... I will not underestimate Adm Tovey reaction to Adm Pound, ... that surely removed the last Pound intentions to proceed in the Court Martial direction having Adm Tovey ( C in C H.F. ) resigning and act as Prisoner's Friend ( the Official defendant position in a Court Martial ) on the summer of 1941.
On this case I share the same Sir Henry Leach opinion about this " Denmark Strait Saga " apparently.

Anyway, what is clear is that this event about those 2 Officers conduct ( RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker and Capt J.C. Leach ) occurred at the end of May 1941 on was " managed " in the way we all know today.

What they did after is out of discussion since it is available into the many Official documents related to this " regrettable aftermath " on the various archives, ... from Adm Tovey dispatches, ... to the Barnes minute, ... until the Adm 205/10, ... and finally the King recognition.
This is what happened in sequence and in this case my opinion is the same of Stephen Roskill, the Royal Navy Official historian for World War 2.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

You are still peddling this bunkum?
to somebody that did not want to listen to ....... and paid the price for his obstinacy.
This is what the " big wheels " are able to do on a life
:lol:

Captain Alfred Jerome Phillips continued exactly as before, in command of his vessel through until January 1942, notably on the arduous Arctic convoys. He received his DSO for actions in the Bismarck Chase. Having done 2 years in this highly stressful role he deserved a relief, which he got.

HMS Keith (D 06)
Capt.
Destroyer
31 Jul 1939
6 Sep 1939
HMS Montrose (D 01)
Capt.
Destroyer
6 Sep 1939
27 Sep 1939
HMS Norfolk (78)
Capt.
Heavy cruiser
12 Feb 1940
20 Jan 1942

Staff History).

June
3rd HM Aircraft Carrier VICTORIOUS and HM Cruiser NEPTUNE joined WS8X as Ocean
Escort during Atlantic passage.
5th HMS VICTORIOUS and HMS NEPTUNE detached from Ocean Escort.
11th Detached from WS8X on arrival at Freetown and took passage to return to UK

July Under refit at South Shields.
to
August

September
15th Rejoined 1st Cruiser Squadron in Home Fleet and deployed on patrol and escort duty.

October
18th Escorted Russian Convoy PQ2 from Scapa Flow with HM Destroyers ICARUS, ECLIPSE.
HM Fleet Minesweepers BRAMBLE, SEAGULL and SPEEDY.
(Note: The Minesweepers were passage to Russia for minesweeping duties and convoy escort.
For details of all Russian Convoy operations and hazards met during Arctic operations see
ENGAGE THE ENEMY MORE CLOSELY, CONVOYS TO RUSSIA by R. Ruegg ,
CONVOY! by Paul Kemp and ARCTIC CONVOYS by R Woodman.)).
30th Detached from Convoy PQ2 on arrival at Archangel

November
3rd Joined Convoy QP2 with HMS ICARUS and ECLIPSE as escort for passage to
Scapa Flow.
12th Remained in Iceland with Home Fleet units to intercept TIRPITZ in event of breakout.
(For details of tactical deployment of Home Fleet see ENGAGE THE ENEMY MORE
CLOSELY by Corelli Barnett).
28th Passage to Scapa Flow with HMS KING GEORGE V and HMS VICTORIOUS screened
by Fleet destroyers.

December Deployed with Home Fleet at Scapa Flow.

1 9 4 2

January Deployment with Home Fleet in continuation.

Obviously we never rose above the nadir of your imaginings. Why not plumb a new low, say by accusing Tom Phillips of joining the Conspiracy by fabricating this detailed explanation for the Second Hood Inquiry, instead of your "intuited" reason? BTW the informal, non-legal status of a Board of Inquiry in contrast to a Court Martial is exemplified by the ramshackle arrangements of the first and the consequent need for a second.

Hello Alberto,
Had Bismarck been left free to raid in Atlantic, both Leach and Wake-Walker would have been surely Court-Martialled for their actions and, IMHO, sentenced,
There is a section for "might have beens" called hypothetical scenarios. If there had been even a suspicion of truth in Winston's impulsive, ill-informed opinion, apparently almost immediately forgotten, what happened several days later, beyond the two officers' control would have been immaterial. Both W-W and Leach continued in their respective roles with the full approval of the First Sea Lord, and received their dues in the form of awards.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "There is a section for "might have beens" called hypothetical scenarios"
:lol:
Extremely funny to hear now Mr.Wadinga speaking about speculations, after his fantasies about Brockman misleading Pound, Alexander and Churchill :shock: , after his insinuations about Roskill manipulating Tovey and trying to manipulate Kennedy :shock: , etc. :lol:


Had Bismarck survived, inflicted losses and damaged British interests, Leach and Wake-Walker would have surely been submitted to inquiry and court martial for letting her slip. They were just saved by the sinking of Bismarck without any further loss.
Somerville was inquired for much less, just because he was not so lucky to inflict damages to the Regia Marina at Spartivento and Troubridge was court-martialled because his "timidity" against Goeben (not redeemed by Milne and his battlecruisers) caused the war with the Ottoman Empire.

Regrettably, but very understandably (due to wartime needs, to political and propaganda reasons and just to pragmatism), not always the merits of an officer determine his career/disgrace, most often the mere results are taken into consideration and the Bismarck operation is a clear example of this.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Aberto Virtuani,

you wrote :

Had Bismarck survived, inflicted losses and damaged British interests, Leach and Wake-Walker would have surely been submitted to inquiry and court martial for letting her slip.

They were just saved by the sinking of Bismarck without any further loss.
No doubts about it, .. as somebody at the proper level wrote at the time :

" ... I do not think there is any doubt that had Bismarck not being sunk the question of wheter the shadowing was adequately performed the night they gave us the slip would have come accutely to the fore ... "

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

At last an admission
not always the merits of an officer determine his career/disgrace
that Winston's prejudice was unwarranted, Pound's prosecution had no impetus, and therefore the hazy miasma of "evidence" you and your co-author have fabricated is pointless.

I need no instruction in the circumstances of unfair treatment by WSC, I have presented the cases of North and Longmore as examples. In the former case the ships of a non-belligerent nation went unchallenged, passed on to West Africa and North was sacked. Overall success or failure was not the arbiter, if Churchill and thus Pound had really wanted Wake-Walker and Leach gone- they would have been gone.

As Duncan has pointed out there was no prosecution because there was no case to answer.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

please stop inventing things from your side :stop:

I have not fabricated anything.

The shame of this event and all has been done to " manage " it after it is into your official Archives and published by many British historians, including the Official one for WW2, namely Stephen Roskill.

You are the one trying to sell your opinion about all this, while we ( me and Alberto ) are just highlighting the reality available to everybody willing to understand and learn how the things really went.

No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side.

If you and some others are unable to find the proper documents into the archives or just like to read in your way the few of them you like better, it is your problem and not mine.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "As Duncan has pointed out there was no prosecution because there was no case to answer."
No, just because there was no Bismarck afloat anymore.
North case is a good example, he too paid not only for his own errors but (mostly) also for the overall result (a failure for Britain).

Leach and Wake-Walker were saved by Bismarck sinking, despite Mr.Wadinga unwillingness to accept the evident fact that, had Bismarck survived, they would have had troubles.


Antonio Bonomi wrote: "No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side"
Hi Antonio,
you are right, but please keep in mind that these poor deniers are just offending because they don't want to admit that they had been wrong since 5 years.


Coming to much more interesting (and finally new) things,

" ... I do not think there is any doubt that had Bismarck not being sunk the question of wheter the shadowing was adequately performed the night they gave us the slip would have come accutely to the fore ... " ,

Who could have written such words ? :think:

I guess Antonio has found another interesting evidence. I hope he will release this one, despite blatant offenses to his work. :clap:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Yes Tovey's spelling was never impeccable. :D
accutely
All the best

wadinga
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