The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:17 am

Hello Alberto,

Ahhh, I get it. :D An excuse for Tovey's assertion that he heard no more about a Court Martial..........because all he got was a letter from Barnes saying that the Board of Admiralty endorsed both the supposedly-guilty parties' actions. Who coincidentally, four months earlier Tovey remembered had been threatened with a Court Martial. So he only heard about them being innocent, which was nothing to do with them being threatened. Two completely different things.

That is textbook sophistry. Respect :cool:

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:36 am

Hi Sean,
this is what is written in original letters and official British documents.

I don't comment about sophistry with people debating the past perfect tense, the "conduct" and the "Bay of Biscay" definition...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm

Hello everytbody,

it seems that many realized what we have realized now, ... long before me, ... also Geoffrey Regan made it too :
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Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:31 pm

Hello everybody,

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Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:30 pm

Hello Antonio,

More parroting. Regan merely repeats.

Were you at Kew recently mining for a silver bullet? :wink:

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:48 pm

Hi Sean,
how do you know the "silver bullet" was in Kew ? :think:

In any case, it is now in our hands, ready to provide a totally independent (from Tovey) source for the "regrettable" phone call between Tovey and Pound, and demonstrating that at least other 2 people had heard of it.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Hello Alberto,

Antonio blabbed:

he said he bought Regan's book in Kew Gardens bookshop. If he had time on his hands he must have found something he wanted. :D
he had to satisfactorily "arrange" his final report (the "despatches").
All the other "pending" matters (like W-W incautious declarations at the first board) were "corrected" as well.
Remind me again, in the ascending floors in the Ziggurat of Supposition whereabouts does the conspiracy stop? Is Tovey fooling Pound and Phillips or are Tovey, Pound and Phillips fooling Barnes and the Admiralty and Churchill. Or are they all together attempting to fool the British public?

The matter was the threat to two officers, whether it was Court Martial, Board of Inquiry or more subtle discipline. As I said, and you artfully tried to evade:
It would be fascinating to know if Tovey wrote back to their Lordships after reading Barnes' surprising specific endorsement of Leach and Wake-Walker amongst all those thousands under his command, and what he might have said. That is the thing which is astonishingly not mentioned anywhere in Tovey's recollections to Roskill. After all he said he "heard no more about it". No more about it after the phone call on arrival at Scapa. Getting a letter from Their Lordships, four months later, specifically highlighting the subject is certainly hearing about it.


All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:48 pm

Wadinga wrote: "Remind me again, in the ascending floors in the Ziggurat of Supposition whereabouts does the conspiracy stop? "
Hi Sean,
please read again the thread "cover-up synopsis" if you have not yet understood it: "viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799" . You will find there all you need about the initial reports, the sugarcoated final despatches, Barnes' acceptance of them (in their most critical aspects) and the final....decorations. :oops:

I'm not interested at all discussing again and again the same obvious points with someone who is here only to deny everything and who still prefer to live trusting Kennedy's happy ending novel..... :negative:


This thread is about the Court Martial threat as described in Tovey's letter and McMullen interview, confirmed by the official historian of the Royal Navy (S.Roskill) and linked to the ADM 205/10 (pag.331 to 334) clear papers (clear for Roskill and for me, if not for you, I'm sorry it's just your own denier's problem) , by all serious historians afterward and by Sir Henry Leach, who understood exactly in the same way as Roskill the same Court Martial threat to his father.

I do suggest you come back here discussing the Court Martial threat once you have something NEW in your hands to counter the interpretation given by historians and interested people.



Re.your last point, I have already answered to you here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728&start=1020#p77482 and here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728&start=1020#p77495 and you have carefully avoided to post pag.332 showing where Tovey was wrong saying that he heard nothing about the Court Martial threat anymore after Pound phone call.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:41 pm

Hello Alberto,

How could Tovey accurately say he "heard nothing more" about the Court Martial threat, when he received an official letter from the Board of Admiralty, signed by Barnes, specifically praising the actions of the two officers who were the only subjects of the Court Martial threat?

Just another thing he misremembered, only in this case we have direct evidence of his misremembering. :D
interested people
You mean people who parrot a story about evil Winston and Pound turning on their underlings, without including the caveats Kennedy wrote?

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Hi Sean,
we already explained you several times......

The Court Martial was mentioned to Tovey ONLY by Pound during the phone call back to Scapa. No other evidence is available that the Court Martial threat continued after this call. This is why Tovey did not hear anything about it after the call. :stop:


Barnes' formal acceptance of the despatches closed the subsequent thorough investigation on what had been done, but at that time the Court Martial threat had already been countered by Tovey opposition AND mostly by the fact that Bismarck had finally been sunk and there was NO political/propaganda interest in prosecuting the involved officers.
Tovey despatches provided a sugar-coated version of the fact that closed the matter (together with the very full discussions of Churchill with both Tovey and Leach), allowing the decorations. :wink:


As the Court Martial threat has been discussed at length already, I wonder why you are the only one not able to see what was evident to Roskill and to all the historians + the interested people (I meant Sir Henry Leach....).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:00 am

Hello Alberto,

What part of the paragraph quoted in 332 commencing

Their Lordships desire to express their view that the action of breaking off action with Bismarck after being damaged in the engagement was entirely correct..................

Does not relate to the Court Martial threat?

Every single word refers to the Court Martial Threat.

You can't have it both ways. Your supposition is apparently that evil Tovey falsified reports etc etc so well that he fooled Barnes and the others, and the only reason they singled out Leach and Wake-Walker for exoneration and praise was that they had been specifically threatened and that the grounds for this although true, had been erased. Or that everybody up to and including Churchill was approving falsified information in order to create a PR triumph, unnecessary in 1941 since these papers were withheld until 1972. You apparently contend everybody in the establishment was perfectly happy for what your co-author has termed a "couple of cowards" to continue in command. One was specifically returned to his command in time to shake hands with his prime-ministerial accuser en route to the USA.

However you bluff, Tovey was informed specifically in writing that the two officers under "threat" of Court Martial four months previously were no longer under suspicion and were praised for their efforts. You have spent countless words suggesting Tovey masterminded the changing of evidence in order to defeat a continuing threat of Court Martial and yet say that threat "disappeared" after the phone call.

Tovey's glib phrase "I heard no more about it" is rendered entirely inaccurate by this letter. He specially heard a very great deal more about it in Barnes' letter to him. This throws reasonable doubt on the rest of his recollections of the 1950s.

Just saying over and over that although it is exactly the same men and exactly the same incidents as the Court Martial threat, because the words "Court Martial Threat" are not mentioned in Barnes' letter , Tovey would be correct in not connecting the two is utterly illogical.

Just accept Tovey misremembered a lot.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 am

Wadinga wrote: "Tovey's glib phrase "I heard no more about it" is rendered entirely inaccurate by this letter. He specially heard a very great deal more about it in Barnes' letter to him. This throws reasonable doubt on the rest of his recollections of the 1950s.
"
Hi Sean,
I'm afraid that Tovey is right saying he heard no more about the Court Martial.
You insist that Barnes' letter is referred to the same "disciplinary" problem, and you are perfectly right, as Roskill stated in his book (please read carefully below the first attachment, it's not difficult), but Barnes does not explicitly mention the "Court Martial", just underlines certain "disciplinary" aspects (see below second attachement).

When Barnes wrote his acceptance, however, the Court Martial threat had already gone, REPLACED by a "thorough investigation" on the "certain aspects" that required "explanations". Therefore Tovey heard surely a lot about the investigation, having even "very full discussions" with Churchill (see below third attachment) but not being menaced of Court Martial for his subordinates anymore.... :negative:
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I'm sorry for you, despite you stubborn denial, this is exactly the way Roskill reads Tovey's letters (and visits to him) correlating them to the ADM 205/10 documents.

You can of course publish your own theory demonstrating that Roskill was wrong reading the documents in his hands: good luck for your work that will be surely "peer reviewed" before publication :lol: .....
We stay with Roskill consolidated interpretation and we will use it for our publication.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:40 pm

Hello Alberto,

Thanks for posting these again. We know Roskill held a life-long grudge against Pound. But the evidence he possessed to criticise him in this matter was too flimsy to risk using himself, until he could cite Kennedy instead.

We know Roskill received letters from Tovey.

In them Tovey repeatedly, and as his first priority, described the "Shores of France" message which Roskill knew didn't exist. So he knew Tovey was wrong.

In them he described expunging the "Shores of France" message for reasons which are unclear, and which is impossible anyway. So he knew Tovey was wrong.

In them he described not hearing about the Court Martial against Leach and Wake-Walker after the phone call, whereas Roskill knew Barnes' had specifically refuted the allegations which were the only basis of the Court Martial against them, in a letter to Tovey. So he knew Tovey was wrong.

Tovey dilated at length but it was all faulty information and what evidence Roskill had confirmed this.

Roskill personally refrained from repeating the "Shores of France" or the CMDS story until he had farmed out the latter to Kennedy, after sitting on it for many years.

Roskill deliberately redacts the signal in Churchill and the Admirals, removing the Churchillian "We cannot visualize" identifier and wilfully misrepresents it as if it occurred on the 26th, "break off the pursuit", when even the wording he quotes "remain on the scene" identifies it unambiguously as the 11:37B message of the 27th. Tovey is not pursuing anything on the 27th, Bismarck has been circling on the scene since late evening 26th and Pound knew this long before 11:37B/27.

Roskill knew the idiotic "Shores of France" never existed, but deliberately misrepresents the content of 11:37B as if it had occurred the previous day, in order to damage Pound and Churchill's reputations more effectively. Frustration over Tovey's lack of reports during the Final Action actually provoked 11:37B. On the 27th, not as Roskill dishonestly implies, on the 26th.

Roskill says "After Tovey had returned to harbour Pound apologized to him for the despatch of this signal", but makes no mention of expunging, because he knew that is impossible, and the "adjusted" story economically criticises both Churchill and mouthpiece Pound more effectively.

Pound undoubtedly told Tovey on the phone there had been, possibly even still was, pressure from on high to discipline Leach and Wake-Walker for imagined shortcomings. Faced with Tovey's uncompromising defence, he backed down, and I believe agreed to expunge such criticisms from the record. This is the "expunging" Tovey remembers 10 years later and muddles up with something else.

There was no "thorough investigation", there was no distortion of Tovey's report for ulterior motives, but simple rationalisation where other units reported in. For instance Tovey initially guessed PoW's fight had finished at 06:02 when Leach had reported his bridge demolished. When he saw Wake-Walker's report he said PoW had withdrawn at 06:13. A perfectly honest rational change was applied.
we will use it for our publication
I sincerely hope not, you (and your publishers) will rue the day.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:29 pm

Hi Sean,
the theory you have posted above about Roskill historical errors/misinterpretations/intentional misrepresentation of facts is very well exposed, even if a bit lightly proven BY EVIDENCES. :clap:
I really invite you to publish your theory about Roskill being a poor historian and get.... what you deserve..... :lol:

For the time being we stay with his interpretation of the evidences he had in his hands and to his judgement of what Tovey's letter meant, as he had spoken several times to Tovey and he had spent time to study the ADM 205/10 papers.

Again, don't be worried about our publication, think about publishing your (very challenging indeed) one.....


you wrote: "There was no "thorough investigation"
Also you can publish your theory about Pound deliberately writing false information to Alexander when writing there was indeed a "thorough investigation"...... Good luck again !



Bye, Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:18 pm

Hello Alberto,

Roskill was a very fine historian, but he was biased against Pound and the whole tenet of Churchill and the Admirals is unrelenting criticism of the PM's influence on the Admiralty. With a great deal of truth behind it. For Pound bias Read page 102 of Brodhurst Churchill's Anchor finishing with
However that may be, Roskill obtained his revenge on Pound in his Official History.


Brodhurst is very fair-minded over Pound's career, clearly describing both his best and worst features, but he calls Roskill's treatment revenge. He lists Roskill's unrelenting insistence that Pound was unfit for his job on p 113 and then spends several pages with witness accounts that Pound was well enough to function effectively until the very end.

I have shown Roskill misleadingly presents aspects of the 11:37B signal which is bad enough in its own right, as if it were the non-existent "Shores of France" on the 26th as part of his campaign against Pound and Churchill.

In 332

Pound signals that what he is proposing is his version of the truth by his wording. His objective is to get rid of this bureaucratic nonsense, generated by Brockman's misunderstanding, and rumbling on for months, as quickly as possible. Pretend there was an investigation, quote Barnes, job done.
The report on certain aspects...is still outstanding. I suggest the report to the War Cabinet should be on the following lines:-
Why produce a suggested model, why not just give them the results of the thorough investigation? If anything that important had happened Pound would not need to walk Alexander through it. Suggest is tentative, requiring AVA's agreement to something less than a straightforward disclosure.

All the best

wadinga
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