The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 am
Hello everybody,
northcape wrote: "My fellow deniers, May I make the suggestion to let this ridiculous topic rest once for all, simply by not reacting anymore."
the same wise suggestion had been already made twice by a far more fair, credible and "neutral" person here (Paul Mercer :clap: ), but it was always refused by the deniers, in their exalted "crusade" to save the "sacred cow" (the "official" false version that has been sold for 75 years....).

The evidences (ADM 205/10, 178/322 + War Cabinet Minutes) and the declarations of Churchill ("Troubridge comparison"), Alexander ("very full discussions"), Pound (May 26 speech), Barnes (despatches acceptance), Tovey (despatches, letters from 1941 till 1962), Wake-Walker (IWM interview, 1st and 2nd board declarations, final report), Leach (messages and report) and Ellis (report and autobiography) + the serious historians (Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones, Brodhurst) and Sir Henry Leach interpretation of the Court Martial threat are in this very thread, available for everybody to be read and (possibly and willingly...) understood.
The consequence of it, the "cover-up" has been proven here (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799) .


Let's hope this suggestion will be accepted by the other "RN hooligans", but I doubt they will be able to shut up and cease their absurd and unfounded defense of a couple of clearly timid officers "saved" for convenience by the mere result of Bismarck final sinking..... :think:


Bye, Alberto
Yada, yada, yada, but not a word confirming a CM threat. Endlessly repeating the same secondary sources is not helpful.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:26 pm

Hello everybody,

Q.E.D.: the worst deniers (D&S) can't shut up, even if wisely suggested to do so by their colleague (who, at least, had the common sense to understand that it was impossible to counter all the evidences presented here)..... :stubborn:

Threat_Evidences_1.jpg
Threat_Evidences_1.jpg (36.9 KiB) Viewed 584 times


Wadinga wrote: "....I have made available the September 19th Tovey letter...."
FALSE. Mr:Wadinga has hidden it for who knows how much time, until Antonio Bonomi published the relevant part of it, because it was deeply embarrassing for him to see what was Wake-Walker position in Pound ranking :lol: and that, even according to his "prisoner friend", he should learn to "set a guard on his tongue" after his incautious declarations. :lol: :lol:


Dunmunro wrote: "not a word confirming a CM threat"
In the absence of ANY solid proof that Tovey was not fully reliable, his 1961 letter to Rokill (very annoying for Mr.Dunmunro, who seriously believed that a BofI into the conduct of an officer was a kind of recognition) is MORE THAN ENOUGH to understand the truth about the Court Martial threat.



Bye, Alberto
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:47 am

Hello Alberto,

I'm sorry, deeply embarrassing for who? :lol:
until Antonio Bonomi published the relevant part of it

Antonio is indeed very good at only selecting the relevant parts of maps, the relevant parts of reports, the relevant parts of signal logs and the relevant part of ship's logs for his readers. It avoids all that tiresome judging for oneself, if he distorts and misrepresents things beforehand or indeed withholds things altogether, to avoid his readers becoming...………….. confused.


Lets remind ourselves how thoughtfully he removed unnecessary information from this sentence, before he was caught out, because I had the letter too and he didn't know it. :cool:
I have great admiration for him and have found him an excellent fellow to work with, but there is no doubt, like myself he talks emphatically which does sometimes give an unfortunate impression; however I believe that in such a responsible position he could and would set a guard on his tongue, he certainly has the brains and the capability for hard work.

Even if he were to publish the so-called "Silver Bullet" it would, based on past evidence, be certain that material "we did not need to know" would be removed so as not to ………..confuse us. Therefore someone else would have to check and publish what had been left out.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:24 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:26 pm
Hello everybody,

Q.E.D.: the worst deniers (D&S) can't shut up, even if wisely suggested to do so by their colleague (who, at least, had the common sense to understand that it was impossible to counter all the evidences presented here)..... :stubborn:


In case this refers to me:

Wrong. I just have common sense to understand that a discussion with conspiracy theorists is completely useless. They just drag you on their level of nonsense and beat you with their experience and skills in producing nonsense and fake. Q.E.D., also with the post quoted above. I never indicated that it is impossible to counter all the evidence, not with a single word. But still, it is presented as I've done so. Pure fake and lie. In fact, I said it is impossible to have a useful discussion with conspiracy theorists, which again, Q.E.D.
This is not meant to be insulting, and I'm sorry if it comes across as such. But I cannot find any other words for what I observe here.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:54 am

Hello everybody,

come on Alberto, ... you keep on presenting Official documents taken from the archives written and signed by the most important persons involved into this shameful " regrettable aftermath ", ... starting from the main subjects of this " Denmark Strait Saga " up to WSC.

Aren't you able to realize that it was only :
... the assembling of a few irrelevant and inconsequential, and perfectly normal, inconsistencies in subsequent accounts ...
It does not matter if 06:03 became 06:13 for PoW retreat, ... it was inconsequential, ...

It does not matter if Y turret jammed because of the retreat and not way after the PoW turned away in front of the enemy, .... it is irrelevant, ...

It does not matter if Norfolk was at 20.000 yards from Hood ( 12 sm from enemy ) and not at 30.000 yards ( 15 sm ), ... it is inconsequential, ...

It does not matter if Suffolk was at 9 sea miles from the enemy before making the U turn backwards, ... it is irrelevant, ...

Everything " perfectly normal ", ... and those few " inconsistencies " have been corrected by Adm Tovey on his dispatches as we can read, ... after same type of modifications by WW on " subsequent accounts ", ... and everything was obviously accepted and signed by the Royal Navy Admiralty ( Sir Barnes ), ... with WSC acceptance and the final King recognition.

What the documents prove and the most important British historians explains ( ADM 205/10 and 178/322 ) is only a " conspiracy theory " we have invented, ... because never those 2 Officers were subject of an inquiry request by the First sea Lord to the C in C H.F. for their conduct while in action.

Sometimes I cannot believe what I read being written here in, ... because one thing is not been able to understand for personal knowledge limitations, ... another is to simply refuse to realize what a school boy can understand quite easily, ... :think:

This story only demonstrate that in that period the distance between a Court Martial and a Medal was just ... irrelevant.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:48 am

Hello Antonio,

There you go again, truncating a sentence you are quoting, halfway through. It should read:
The assembling of a few irrelevant and inconsequential, and perfectly normal, inconsistencies in subsequent accounts and the biased opinions of a couple of opportunists based on "intuition" who wish to make money and reputation out of defaming these officers and in general the RN senior officers of 1941, by means of a Conspiracy Theory, is extremely reprehensible.
the bad smelling reality surfaced quite easily.
The only smell you sensed was the opportunity for notoriety and money through a sensationalist book sale. Compare this with a slew of titles suggesting Churchill and/or Roosevelt deliberately let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, another Conspiracy Theory. Any halfway responsible publisher scanning this site will see how gauzy and insubstantial your "evidence" is, fabricated as it is upon the recently-exposed myth of CMDS.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:44 pm

Hello everybody,

an opportunist denier may try to publish his own version of the story, with insinuations re. brain tumors, dementia, memory failures, poor old sailor accounts, typo errors, innocent inconsistencies, bosses misled by their secretary, errors in the ADM indexes, weeding of official records, Roskill hidden goals to defame Pound, all British historians and Sir Henry Leach lazily parroting a tale, etc.etc. :lol:

I'm sure he will easily find a publisher for his fantasies. :kaput:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:01 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:58 pm

..... Last but not least, ... the so called " Silver Bullet " will be released with my future book about the Bismarck.
Like it or not I will never disclose it before. .....



Your book will be torn to pieces if you think that the evidence so far put forward here will convince anyone.

The idea that your "silver bullet" will somehow redeem 200-odd pages of second-rate conspiracy theory is laughable.

I look forward to you telling us how many rejection letters you receive.

(On a serious point - you really do need a native English speaker to check your manuscript, you do not pick up on nuances and terms of speech.)

.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:42 pm

Hello everybody,
pgollin wrote: "you do not pick up on nuances and terms of speech"
possibly, however Antonio has very well understood the essence of the battle timings and distances, of the threat and of the subsequent cover-up, while apparently others have not yet.

In addition to geometry, words like "BofI into the conduct", "Court-Martial trial", "the worst thing since Troubridge", "superficial damages", "intentions to re-engage" and "guns are OK" are very clear, needing no nuance interpretation, as well as the low insults to other forum members like "idiot" and "your stupidity". :kaput:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:42 pm

Hello P Gollin,

Of course they are extremely sophisticated in recognizing subtleties and nuances, they can read:
I have great admiration for him and have found him an excellent fellow to work with, but there is no doubt, like myself he talks emphatically which does sometimes give an unfortunate impression; however I believe that in such a responsible position he could and would set a guard on his tongue, he certainly has the brains and the capability for hard work.
and see only:
set a guard on his tongue

and pretend that's all there was;

Maybe Adm Tovey had in mind something that correlates to his later judgement of " somebody " that had a particular need while talking emphatically :
... would set a guard on his tongue ...
In my personal opinion that statement must refer to something " someone " said, ... either in interview or in front to a board on inquiry, ... surely not to something written, ... otherwise the guard was needed for his hand or pencil, ... and not for his tongue, ..

discarding all that content that does not agree with the "intuitions" that started this whole business. Earlier in this debate it was possible to only show that content which agreed with their preconceived intuitions, redacting that which did not.

Now things have got more difficult. :cool: A lot more difficult.


This point:
The two Tovey letters I have discovered and released show clearly there never was a Court Martial threat in 1941. The first specifically only talks of a Board of Inquiry and Tovey says emphatically that will not happen. Whatever motivation Pound had for requesting a Board of Inquiry he was so diffident about it, he immediately forgot about it. The second includes an effusive recommendation for Wake-Walker to be appointed as Pound's deputy, a proposal which could only be considered insane, if Pound had actually been trying to Court Martial him or believed his conduct so poor it required a real Board of Enquiry only 3 months before. Thus these two letters, written by Tovey in 1941, completely disprove his allegations made many years afterward to Roskill and McMullen.
has never been answered.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:29 am

The only people I told about this besides yourself [Roskill] were my C.O.S. + Secretary.
I am wondering how your "cover up" could work without involving Leach and Wake-Walker.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:59 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I am glad that someone finally is not only trying to refuse what cannot be refused any longer and restarted making value add questions about this historical event.

Time ago on this forum this was the state of the art and we made great historical discussions obtaining very good work results.

Lately this approach has almost disappeared due to a very evident personal " blind side taken " involvement approach that I can understand, ... even if it is lately deteriorated into personal offenses and insults I started collecting from the worst " hooligan/deniers " on the very early phase of the Articles of War thread, ... from May 2013.

Anyway, lets move to your question :
I am wondering how your " Cover Up " could work without involving Leach and Wake-Walker.
I am sure you remember my very first answer to you on the " Cover Up Synopsis" thread you started on Sept 2015 :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799

Now at that time I did not know about the existence of Adm Pound May 28th, 1941 letter to Adm Tovey ( not found yet ) and obviously about Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 response to Adm Pound that we have now in our hands.

I am sure you have already evaluated the statement Tovey wrote to Pound : " ... I have just received your letter of the 28th ( of May 1941 ) and I am intentionally replying before I see Wake-Walker or Leach. "

This obviously means that Adm Tovey had the clear intention to see and talk to them about the argument in discussion with Pound, ... so they have surely been made aware about it.

Remember that Wake-Walker and Leach final reports have been made on early June 1941, ... surely after Tovey saw and spoke with them about all this story.

We have already discussed about WW differences between his May 28th, interview declarations to the BBC and his report content.

We know about the differences of Capt Leach radio messages content and his final report.

The same thing apply to Capt Ellis report, ... written even after the above two reports, ... and his autobiography explanations of the truth.

It should not take much to realize what was going on in Scapa Flow on board the HMS King George V into Adm Tovey office during those early June 1941 days, ... and on board the HMS Norfolk on the CS1 Flag Officer squadron office between RearAdm Wake-Walker and Capt Ellis + Capt Phillips, ... with Kelburn and PInchin help of course.

Thoughts welcome, ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:55 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:59 am
I am sure you have already evaluated the statement Tovey wrote to Pound : " ... I have just received your letter of the 28th ( of May 1941 ) and I am intentionally replying before I see Wake-Walker or Leach. "

This obviously means that Adm Tovey had the clear intention to see and talk to them about the argument in discussion with Pound, ... so they have surely been made aware about it.
Er....no. Tovey wanted to dispose it once and for all before he would see WW and Leach. That means he didn't want to bother them. Otherwise there was no need to hurry.

According the sources presented so far you have the choice between Tovey's memories from the 60s not beeing reliable or Wake-Walker and Leach not knowing of Pound's request.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:38 am

Herr Nilsson wrote: "Tovey wanted to dispose it once and for all before he would see WW and Leach. That means he didn't want to bother them."
Hi Marc,
as I see it, Tovey just means he wants to speak to W-W and Leach having taken a formal position in front of his superior, in order to ask them to prepare their reports accordingly, being assured of his full endorsement toward Pound.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:02 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:42 pm

.... however Antonio has very well understood the essence of .... .... the subsequent cover-up, ....


No, apart from the unacknowledged editing and ignoring of contrary evidence, AS I SAID, he has not grasped the language properly.

PLEASE get a native English speaker on board and listen to their advice.

.

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