The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:39 am

Hello Antonio,
Since I have nothing to hide
Oh yes you do-o! Come on...… don't be shy, show us your Silver Bullet! Why are you hiding it? Promise we won't laugh, unless it's really silly, like arguing about what instant you call "retreating" for a ship that chased Bismarck for another day, or whether revising a guess with more information is acceptable or even whether an unpublished memoir written many years later is as accurate as a report written at the time :cool:

Since Barnes and the entire Admiralty were allegedly in on the Conspiracy, why bother to falsify anything? Besides Wake-Walker was doing such a great job as C-in-C Home Fleet (acting), and Leach was in Winston's good books with a signed photograph.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:02 am

Hello everybody,
after we got read of the worst person in this forum, let's try to get back to a naval history discussion:
Wadinga wrote: "unless it's really silly, like arguing about what instant you call "retreating" for a ship that chased Bismarck for another day, or whether revising a guess with more information is acceptable or even whether an unpublished memoir written many years later is as accurate as a report written at the time"
Unfortunately, I'm sure that for someone here even the silver bullet will not be enough to accept the CM story.....

I think it is at least as "silly" as saying that:
a ship disengaging from a battle, after 1 minute under fire, after 1 heavy shell received on board, under smoke and full rudder, with a turn away of 160° is actually breaking off the engagement, in any Navy, in any time.
a "memoir" written with the official report quoted in almost each page is far more credible and sincere (if consistent with known facts) than the official report itself, written anyway days after the action, following a Court Martial menace.
Tovey 1961 letter explains perfectly what happened and what was the final aim of Pound/Churchill against the two timid officers, confirming what his 1941 answer to his superior already had mentioned.

However, for sure it is less silly than:
proposing Pinchin's or 1943 Schmalenbach's as actual battlemap for the DS, refusing to agree to a set of initial bearings (that will nail the RN heavy cruisers close to enemy)...
considering point 19 and 17 errors in the "despatches" (and all the other intentional embellishments in declarations) as "typos" or "innocent" errors...
inventing that Brockmann misled Pound, Alexander and Churchill when speaking of the PoW retreat in ADM 205/10...
thinking that Tovey did not want the CM story to be published because unsure of it, instead of to avoid the obvious disgrace to Wake-Walker reputation (as actually he wrote in clear)
insinuating a kind of Roskill's maneuver to push Kennedy publishing the story first (but, after that, confirming it in 2 different books)...


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

northcape
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:34 am

Please let the two clowns ramble on and close this stupidity. No one, absolutely no one, zero people, takes anything here seriously, not a single bit. They have demonstrated on 200 pages that they only want to make fools of themselves, and they succeeded. There is zero chance that they will stop. Let them continue as long and loud as they want, there never was and still not is anyone who considers anything coming out of this as relevant or meaningful information.
In the beginning it was only irrelevant, now it is also utterly silly, and it is becoming totally insane.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:02 am

Hello everybody,
I had just written: "after we got read of the worst person in this forum, let's try to get back to a naval history discussion"
My mistake, I stand corrected, the competition both for the most insulting and the less useful forum member is still open. :(

This guy came in with no added-value whatsoever (he never proposed his view/evidences, being obviously unable to counter the arguments, but his ignorance can be forgiven....), just to criticize (licit) and provoke/insult (not licit) since the beginning:
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 563#p78563
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 695#p78778
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 725#p78843
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 755#p78888
etc.etc.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:58 am

The "cover up" conspiracy theory was always very illogical, but now I'm totally confused. Was Pound a conspirator?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:16 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

you to decide which definition for Adm Pound works the best, ... I have no problem with it.

Facts are that he first asked for a Board of Inquiry for 2 Officers conduct in action ( Wake-Walker and Leach ) to Adm Tovey on May 28th, 1941 ( Ref. ADM 178/322 Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 response ).

He had at hand all messages and reports, with both the truth as well as the intentionally altered data on Adm Tovey dispatches.

He did nothing as far as we know today.

On September 1941 he was sitting on the Admiralty board where Sir Barnes signed the acceptance of Adm Tovey dispatches being the officially accepted version of the facts ( Ref. ADM 205/10 ).

I leave to you the pleasure to define this attitude ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:46 pm

Ok, thank you. So Pound is the impetus and also the end of the line. For a "cover up" we need just Pound. I would call it a change of mind. There is no need for Tovey.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:07 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

Just as I wrote before, ... and Stephen Roskill explained to everybody ( including the hooligan/deniers here in not willing to accept it ) ... long time before I did , ... the ADM 205/10 is the key Official documentation explaining what really happened.

Adm Tovey did the " dirty job " of changing the reports ( with many helps below him, like WW report etc etc ), ... and Adm Pound accepted it.

The politicians, so Sir Alexander and Sir W. Churchill knew everything and approved, ... it is enough to read the pages 331-332-333 and 334 of the Adm 205/10 to easily realize it.

I have re-constructed this shameful events bottom up, ... from the data alteration up to the reasons for it to be done, ... Stephen Roskill did it the other way around, ... from WSC approval down to Adm Tovey dispatches approved by Sir Barnes letter.

Now everything is clear ... and documented at the highest Official level.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:21 pm

That means Pound, Tovey, Alexander, Churchill, the Secretary of the Admiralty and the members of the Board of Admiralty were accomplices?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:40 pm

Hello Antonio,
He did nothing as far as we know today.


No Antonio, he didn't do "nothing"- he gave Wake-Walker considerable extra trust and responsibilities with command of twin carrier task forces. He also ensured Leach returned to his ship and replaced the temporary captain, specifically in time to sail Pound himself, Churchill and several General Staff and War Cabinet members to the USA. These are positive endorsements of these officers. His attitude is clearly that he was convinced there was no wrongdoing by these officers and his easily relinquished request for B of I was merely in case the PM's ignorant and ill-informed rant continued. Which it didn't.

Unfortunately, I'm sure that for someone here even the silver bullet will not be enough to accept the CM story.....
I suspect I/we will never know...………... :cool: But you could always try...…………...

Hello Herr Nilsson, I'm glad you're confused too. I almost believed it was because I was spending too much time in the Pub :dance: to understand this thread, as I was told, but have you been down the Bierkeller too?


Antonio has fabricated his "evidence" from the bottom up, but by implicating everybody (except His Majesty) neatly removed any reasons for doing any cover-up. As you say illogical. There was no Freedom of Information Act in 1941 to worry about, just the Official Secrets Act.

The "cover up" conspiracy theory was always very illogical


Unless you deeply resent what you consider "triumphalist" accounts of the RN's defeat of Rheinübung and suspect you can make some money out of providing an alternative reality. Mind you, defamation without decent evidence can cost you money too, even if your victims aren't alive to sue, and you have to pulp all those unsold copies- ask David Irving. :D


In the opinion of myself and apparently many reviewers, Ludovic Kennedy's well-researched and well-written account, from someone who was actually there, and who wrote sympathetically of the motives, actions and sufferings of those on both sides, remains one of the best available.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:53 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

what I am going to publish is just based on what Stephen Roskill, ... and I remember you all we are talking the Royal Navy Official Historian for World War 2, ... did explain us being the path to follow top down about this story, ... from WSC down to Alexander and Pound, ... until Adm Tovey dispatches ( Ref. ADM 205/10 pages 331-332-333-334 ), ... and the Court Martial threat discussed between Adm Pound and Adm Tovey, ... just as Stephen Roskill referenced on his 2 books published after Sir L. Kennedy book Pursuit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roskill

My value add has been only to reach the same conclusions Stephen Roskill reached, ... but proceeding bottom up, ... from the real battle data to the altered reports and dispatches by Adm Tovey, ... and connect them to what Stephen Roskill so clearly indicated us all, ... many, many years before me.

If somebody does have difficulties to realize the whole events scenario, ... it is his problem, ... not mine, ... I clearly realized what Stephen Roskill indicated us, ... so easy and elementary, ... and well explained it is.

Official documents, ... clear references, ... very reliable sources, ... I do not see any problem at all for the publication.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:12 pm

Hello Antonio,
My value add has been only to reach the same conclusions Stephen Roskill reached
and connect them to what Stephen Roskill so clearly indicated us all, ... many, many years before me
At no point did Roskill, Rhys-Jones or any other previous author suggest anything like the Conspiracy Theory you have conjured up. Neither did they reach "conclusions" about the CMDS story, since they merely repeated Tovey's uncorroborated allegation, there being no other evidence.
what I am going to publish is just based on what Stephen Roskill
Except you will presumably ignore those elements you don't like and redact phrases like
"despite the serious damage sustained by the Prince of Wales and the wholly unfavourable tactical position at the time.
" Churchill and the Admirals p127

and substitute in your own manufactured information to replace them, whilst still claiming
what I am going to publish is just based on what Stephen Roskill

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:53 pm
Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

what I am going to publish is just based on what Stephen Roskill, ... and I remember you all we are talking the Royal Navy Official Historian for World War 2, ... did explain us being the path to follow top down about this story, ... from WSC down to Alexander and Pound, ... until Adm Tovey dispatches ( Ref. ADM 205/10 pages 331-332-333-334 ), ... and the Court Martial threat discussed between Adm Pound and Adm Tovey, ... just as Stephen Roskill referenced on his 2 books published after Sir L. Kennedy book Pursuit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roskill

My value add has been only to reach the same conclusions Stephen Roskill reached, ... but proceeding bottom up, ... from the real battle data to the altered reports and dispatches by Adm Tovey, ... and connect them to what Stephen Roskill so clearly indicated us all, ... many, many years before me.

If somebody does have difficulties to realize the whole events scenario, ... it is his problem, ... not mine, ... I clearly realized what Stephen Roskill indicated us, ... so easy and elementary, ... and well explained it is.

Official documents, ... clear references, ... very reliable sources, ... I do not see any problem at all for the publication.

Bye Antonio
So instead of a silver bullet, A&A have instead prepared a large batch of cool-aid to accompany their publication... :oops:

As they say in America...Don't drink the cool-aid! :lol:

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:56 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "....what I am going to publish is just based on what Stephen Roskill......I do not see any problem at all for the publication."
Hi Antonio,
for once, I don't agree with you.
Roskill understood the "aftermath" and found in ADM 205/10 the evidences confirming what Tovey told/wrote him. However you have done a great step forward: you have reconstructed precisely the battle and you have noticed the intentional alteration of facts done in the reports. Only Rhys-Jones went a bit in this direction, speaking of "Tovey's version" but not studying the battle in detail and thus implicitly confirming the same version.

Looking at the hysterical, offensive and stubborn reactions to your link between the CM story and the sugar-coating in the reports, I'm afraid that many people will be very angry to see L.Kennedy fairy tale totally disproved (after the much more balanced, but still "diplomatically" reticent, account of the Baron).


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:27 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

no problems Alberto, ... I like positive and constructive disagreements, ... looking at what we have here in of a much lower level.

Anyhow, I am thankful to both Stephen Roskill as well as to Graham Rhys-Jones for their valuable information.

Of course I went deeper and enlarged the research and plugged in my battle re-construction knowledge.

The key point connecting the bottom up to the top down analysis is obviously the Sir Barnes Admiralty letter statements about Wake-Walker and Leach ( September 1941 ) containing the intentionally altered Adm Tovey dispatches statements ( July 1941 ).

Now from the Court Martial threat until WSC statement : Leave it ! ... and the King recognition, ... everything is clear.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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