The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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HMSVF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by HMSVF » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:42 am

paul.mercer wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:25 am
northcape wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:11 pm
Please let the two gentlemen clowns alone, this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I insist to say that the world is flat and that it was created 6300 years ago by god, and I can prove this by [insert any nonsense her], nobody can stop me from doing this. This is where science and believe diverge, e.g. you cannot prove or disprove one with the other. These two concepts of organizing mind and life are just not compatible. Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously. So let A&A live in their fantasy world, if it makes them happy. DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
Hi Northcape,
DS court martial discussion, RIP, please.
At Last, someone agrees with me about bringing this debate to an end and hopefully restore the mutual respect we once had for each others opinions in this forum.
[/quote]


Agree. It's unresolvable.

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wadinga
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Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:32 am

Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Unfortunately, Antonio Bonomi who has formerly written highly respected technical reference works, has branched out into fiction and tirelessly promoted this Conspiracy Theory which he has fabricated. If he wished to keep his opinion to himself that would be one thing, but that is not his intention. He wishes to see his alternative history adopted as the "truth". He has recruited an acolyte (one drifted away) and his evangelical effort continues. His "truth" has already been published in an Italian language military magazine, Storia Militare and as we have seen, he plans to have his creation gain credibility by including it in his next technical work as if it had the same value as his work on colour schemes, photo identification etc.
Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously.


Only by resisting and constantly exposing the inaccuracies, misrepresentation and omissions of his argument can this happy situation continue. The depressingly-high proportion of the population who believe the Moon Landings were faked despite the clarity of the evidence shows how the stupidest ideas can gain creedence even when the strongest efforts are made to discredit them. There is nothing which will make A & A change their minds, my arguments are not meant for that, because they are beyond help. However the excitement of their new "take" might deceive those just beginning to take an interest in naval history.

There are several threads dealing with PoW's or Bismarck's gunnery, The D/F question and other forums not at all concerned with the Denmark Straits, and none of which include the passions raised here. For those in search of the peaceful, harmonious life of uncontentious "mutual respect" they are a haven. If the vexacious atmosphere here in specific threads is too much to bear, one does does not need to enter. Through the good auspices of the splendid Jose Rico this website covers many different areas and we should all be suitably thankful to him.

they just make the difference between going directly under a Court Martial in case of a Board of Inquiry

Only in the case of vessel loss can a Court Martial be "called directly". In such a opinion-based case, and especially with so little information being available before reports were filed, whatever the preliminary report compiled by one individual said, it would be necessary to have a Board of Enquiry first as per Kings Regs


The May 31st letter proves that CMDS is a myth. The Conspiracy Theory is a myth built on a myth.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

HMSVF
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by HMSVF » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:10 pm

wadinga wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:32 am
Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
this is the only way how to end this stupidity and get back to normal. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Unfortunately, Antonio Bonomi who has formerly written highly respected technical reference works, has branched out into fiction and tirelessly promoted this Conspiracy Theory which he has fabricated. If he wished to keep his opinion to himself that would be one thing, but that is not his intention. He wishes to see his alternative history adopted as the "truth". He has recruited an acolyte (one drifted away) and his evangelical effort continues. His "truth" has already been published in an Italian language military magazine, Storia Militare and as we have seen, he plans to have his creation gain credibility by including it in his next technical work as if it had the same value as his work on colour schemes, photo identification etc.
Also, it is clear that nobody, absolutely nobody, takes this seriously.


Only by resisting and constantly exposing the inaccuracies, misrepresentation and omissions of his argument can this happy situation continue. The depressingly-high proportion of the population who believe the Moon Landings were faked despite the clarity of the evidence shows how the stupidest ideas can gain creedence even when the strongest efforts are made to discredit them. There is nothing which will make A & A change their minds, my arguments are not meant for that, because they are beyond help. However the excitement of their new "take" might deceive those just beginning to take an interest in naval history.

There are several threads dealing with PoW's or Bismarck's gunnery, The D/F question and other forums not at all concerned with the Denmark Straits, and none of which include the passions raised here. For those in search of the peaceful, harmonious life of uncontentious "mutual respect" they are a haven. If the vexacious atmosphere here in specific threads is too much to bear, one does does not need to enter. Through the good auspices of the splendid Jose Rico this website covers many different areas and we should all be suitably thankful to him.

they just make the difference between going directly under a Court Martial in case of a Board of Inquiry

Only in the case of vessel loss can a Court Martial be "called directly". In such a opinion-based case, and especially with so little information being available before reports were filed, whatever the preliminary report compiled by one individual said, it would be necessary to have a Board of Enquiry first as per Kings Regs


The May 31st letter proves that CMDS is a myth. The Conspiracy Theory is a myth built on a myth.


All the best

wadinga

I agree with everything you have said Wadinga

However what is the end point to this debate?We know the stance that has been taken, it will not change, no matter what. The uses of such words as "coward" and "timid" tell you all you need to know. Its been debated at length and shows no resolution, because there cannot be resolution. Recognised experts in the field have said on this forum why the whole cover up story is flawed but the proposers continue regardless. Fortunately in the days of social media people can make their own mind up and review online anybody's work. As long as there are people interested there will be those who will read round the subject and perhaps these very threads and make there own conclusions. The fact that the likes of Alan Raven and Bill Juren's have said that there are flaws in the whole thesis, the fact that the silver bullet seems to have disappeared into the ether is hardly a ringing endorsement.

When an outsider see's the words "loosers" ,"hooligans" and "deniers" on these forums what do you think they will take from that? To start a riposte with an Ad hominem rather than a critical response to a line of debate is hardly a reinforcement of a POV. Neither does it make the forum an attractive place to join. Watch the numbers drop.

Lock the thread, keep it as a uneditable reference to the debate, let the public decide (and review anything published - any review could reference this forum to make it clear the concerns )and move things on would be my suggestion.


Best wishes


HMSVF

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:50 pm

HMSVF wrote: "When an outsider see's the words "loosers" ,"hooligans" and "deniers" on these forums what do you think they will take from that? "
What they will take from words like "idiot" or "stupid" or "ignorant" used MUCH BEFORE by the insulting guys ? :kaput: Please let's be serious !

Now they have for them the words that are more appropriate to define people unable to read the documents (accepting what is written), to look at a map, or to understand what all historians + Sir Henry Leach had explained them. Loosers is obvious from evidences, deniers is blatant from their attitude when presented with a new evidence and hooligan from their poorly educated insults.


The only new aspect Antonio has revealed, the "cover-up", is what make them furious because they still prefer to think that Tovey was making innocent errors when writing points 17 and 19 of the despatches (not attempting to protect two timid officers), that Pinchin left the bearings cut in the middle of the Ocean because of a lack of attention, that Wake-Walker was perfectly honest changing his previous declarations, that Ellis was a poor old sailor when writing his autobiography, that Pound was weak when requesting in writing a BofI into the conduct of the two militarily poor officers, that Tovey was affected by dementia when telling Roskill about the Court Martial threat, etc.etc.....

All the story has been already published on the most serious Italian military history magazine and it will be enhanced and published in English too, because it is supported by all the evidence available (plus some "extras" :wink: ), while they have ONLY their anger for the end of the fairy tale they have loved so much until now. :lol: :lol: :lol:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

paul.mercer
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:18 pm

Wadinga » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:32 am
Hello to those who wish to see things shut down,
An excellent idea!

Gentlemen,
It appears that what we are arguing about are several different points 1) Should Capt Leach should have continued the battle instead of dis-engaging, (2 Whether Adml Wake Walker should have re-engaged) (3 Whether one or both should or should not have have been Court Martialed (3 Did Adml Pound order a Court Martial and (5 Did Adml Tovey threaten to haul down his flag and offer to be the 'prisoners friend' and finally (6 Should Capt Leach be regarded as a coward for taking the action that he did?
We have heard all the arguments put forward by those whom I personally consider to be extremely knowledgeable on Naval affairs over 151 posts (so far) without coming to any real conclusions and it would appear that this debate is obviously going nowhere except in circles as both sides are firmly entrenched with their views and nothing, it seems will change them.
What concerns me most is the tone this and one or two other debates in this Forum are taking, generally speaking we have always respected each others views even if we totally disagree with them and should it continue then there is a real chance that this Forum will lose some of its best and most knowledgeable contributors over something that may or may not have occurred after the battle of 77 years ago.
Can we not stop this now, agree to disagree and as HMSF said " Lock the thread, keep it as a un-editable reference to the debate, let the public decide (and review anything published - any review could reference this forum to make it clear the concerns)and move things on would be my suggestion".
Over to you Gentlemen.

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