Hood Gunnery on May 24

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

RF wrote: ".....My own view is that if I was in Holland's shoes I would have switched POW in front of Hood at the start of the run in.....but if Holland had won a famous victory and despatched both German ships by the method outlined in my previous paragraph, then his switching of POW ahead of Hood would have been seen as a brilliant tactical move."
Hi RF,
I see the points you mention re. the opportunity to put PoW first and I do agree that PoW should have been put ahead of Hood from a pure risk calculating viewpoint.

The big problem here is that Holland received by Tovey a (wrong IMHO) explicit order to fly his flag on Hood, while In Scapa, before sailing against a modern and powerful battleship like Bismarck. There was all the evening to transfer the admiral staff to PoW, and if Tovey was really aware of the risk, he should have asked Holland to fly his flag in PoW, instead of speaking after the battle......

Due to the order received, if I was in Holland's shoes, I don't see how I could have asked someone else to "draw Bismarck fire" in my place.....
I can possibly agree with your outcome, in case of a victory. However, in case of a defeat (PoW sunk even if not blown up, after a possibly longer duel), I think everybody would have accused Holland of cowardice....

Bye, Alberto
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alecsandros
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros »

paulcadogan wrote:
alecsandros wrote:"God damn it, those ships are perfectly alike... My intel must be wrong... it's Bismarck AND Tirpitz TOGETHER"...
:shock: YIKES!! If that had been the case there would most likely have been quite an uproar on the compass platform followed by a frantic signal to the Admiralty and Tovey, followed by a rapid turn to port to open A-arcs immediately - deck armour or no deck armour...

Briggs and Dundas would have known.....
... Indeed, it should have been known on Hood... but ... with so few survivors... :think:

Today I found an article from New York Times dated May 25th 1941, which says : "Tirpitz believed to be at sea", London May 24th 1941.

I tried to attach it but failed...
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RF
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF »

I would imagine that if Holland had discovered that it was Tirpitz accompanying Bismarck instead of Prinz Eugen he would not have engaged at all but joined Norfolk and Suffolk in shadowing until Tovey joined him with KGV and Repulse.... and thus keep to the RN engagement dictum of two on one superiority.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
alecsandros
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote:I would imagine that if Holland had discovered that it was Tirpitz accompanying Bismarck instead of Prinz Eugen he would not have engaged at all but joined Norfolk and Suffolk in shadowing until Tovey joined him with KGV and Repulse.... and thus keep to the RN engagement dictum of two on one superiority.
... It it extremely hypothetical, and speculative of me to think that...

However... If Holland were to discover the monstruosity... it could only be around 5:50... When it was to late for further interception. [i.e. there was no time to wait for Tovey, as the Germans would break out in the Atlantic at high speed. Given the geometry, Hood would be left behind as well in a matter of about 10 to 15 minutes if Holland didn't engage]
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros »

Another try...
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RF
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF »

alecsandros wrote:
However... If Holland were to discover the monstruosity... it could only be around 5:50... When it was to late for further interception. [i.e. there was no time to wait for Tovey, as the Germans would break out in the Atlantic at high speed. Given the geometry, Hood would be left behind as well in a matter of about 10 to 15 minutes if Holland didn't engage]
Set against the risk of engaging, with the possibility of Hood quickly sunk, POW pounded into a floating wreck and then Norfolk and Suffolk being destroyed as well.

Tovey would have both German battleships loose in the Atlantic with no shadowing and only KGV and Repulse available to him.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
alecsandros
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
However... If Holland were to discover the monstruosity... it could only be around 5:50... When it was to late for further interception. [i.e. there was no time to wait for Tovey, as the Germans would break out in the Atlantic at high speed. Given the geometry, Hood would be left behind as well in a matter of about 10 to 15 minutes if Holland didn't engage]
Set against the risk of engaging, with the possibility of Hood quickly sunk, POW pounded into a floating wreck and then Norfolk and Suffolk being destroyed as well.
Holland did not have the hindsight that you and me have. And he had his ORDERS...
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RF
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF »

That's true.

The results could have been truly catastrophic hindsight or no hindsight.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Cag »

Hi All,

Just a quick question, I have read through Captain Ellis's biography again and noted something, he states that he considered Suffolk's tactical role was to follow and flank mark and so had a sailor placed on the appropriate set on the appropriate frequency calling up Hood to be able to report fall of shot. He also states that they were calling Hood right up to the point of her explosion.

Could this have caused problems with early gunnery control messages between Prince of Wales and Hood, or would this have been on a different frequency?

Thanks for any reply,
Best wishes
Cag.
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RF
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by RF »

This also poses another question.

If Suffolk was flank marking the fall of Hood's salvoes would they not notice the shooting was directed at Prinz Eugen, as that ship was reported on a separate bearing to Bismarck?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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paulcadogan
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan »

RF wrote:If Suffolk was flank marking the fall of Hood's salvoes would they not notice the shooting was directed at Prinz Eugen, as that ship was reported on a separate bearing to Bismarck?
I think that from her position, almost directly astern, slightly to starboard of the Germans, it would have been difficult for Suffolk to tell which German ship Hood's shells were falling near. She might have been able to assess range, but it would have been hard to tell line. According to Bradford, Suffolk though Hood's first two salvos were close to Bismarck, the third appeared to straddle.

We know Hood's first two salvos were off for line ahead of PG, the third was closer and drenched her with seawater.

As for the radio stuff Cag - I have no idea! :oops:
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Steve Crandell
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Steve Crandell »

Cag wrote:Hi All,

Just a quick question, I have read through Captain Ellis's biography again and noted something, he states that he considered Suffolk's tactical role was to follow and flank mark and so had a sailor placed on the appropriate set on the appropriate frequency calling up Hood to be able to report fall of shot. He also states that they were calling Hood right up to the point of her explosion.

Could this have caused problems with early gunnery control messages between Prince of Wales and Hood, or would this have been on a different frequency?

Thanks for any reply,
Best wishes
Cag.
All I can say is that if it wasn't on a different frequency it would interfere and I would expect them to be on a different frequency.
Cag
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Cag »

Hi All,

Thank you RF, Paul, and Mr Crandell that answers my question perfectly!

Many thanks
Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by Byron Angel »

paulcadogan wrote:
RF wrote:If Suffolk was flank marking the fall of Hood's salvoes would they not notice the shooting was directed at Prinz Eugen, as that ship was reported on a separate bearing to Bismarck?
I think that from her position, almost directly astern, slightly to starboard of the Germans, it would have been difficult for Suffolk to tell which German ship Hood's shells were falling near. She might have been able to assess range, but it would have been hard to tell line.

..... Flank marking served to advise fall of shot for range. Corrections for deflection were easily managed by the firing ship itself.

B
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paulcadogan
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Re: Hood Gunnery on May 24

Post by paulcadogan »

Of course Byron - that makes absolute sense. Thanks!
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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