An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

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A raven

An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by A raven »

Night action on the 12th October 1940.
Acting alone, the cruiser Ajax (without the use of radar or from any intelligence help) engages Italian destroyers 100 miles east of Malta.
She sinks TWO.
She completely cripples a THIRD. Later sunk.
She damages a FOURTH.
Ajax is unable to engage the remaining THREE destroyers who advance away from the Ajax, at high speed.

These seven to one odds with the results given above, strongly suggest at least ONE or possibly TWO additionally RN vessels were present.
It is difficult to believe that ONE light cruiser could achieve all this. There has to be something that has been kept hidden for all these years, and for sinister reasons to. One has to bear in mind that Italian destroyers were trained to fight at night, and this may have been the reason why the Italian vessels performed so brilliantly.
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Byron Angel »

I don't by any means present myself as any sort of authority on the WW2 naval war in the Mediterranean. But from what I have been able to glean in a short time from the great and wonderful internet, the action off Cape Passero seems to have been rather more complicated than the above post suggests. Is it in fact true that AJAX was initially surprised at very short range by the attack of the three Italian torpedo boats? If so, she herself was quite lucky to have evaded their torpedoes. It further appears that the Italians came away from this action with a clear understanding that their night-fighting doctrine and materiel were overall inferior to that of the RN.

The night-fighting skills of the WW2 RN cannot be denied. Apart from the IJN and perhaps the KM, no other navy of the war could be deemed comparable in that regard. On the other hand, it can fairly be argued that the RM displayed no uniquely special degree of night-fighting incompetence any greater, for example, than that shown by the USN in in its first year or so of such fighting in the Pacific against a better trained and prepared opponent. The difference is that the USN had the time and resources to sort things out, while the RM did not.

My opinion, FWIW.

B
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by A Raven »

I agree that the USN in the first 12 to 18 months of the Pacific War were as incompetent as the Italians at night fighting.

The German Navy: To put it plainly and honestly; were not very good at fighting at night with the exception of the E Boats. This view comes from reading a multitude of official documents, British, and German translations.
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@A.Raven:
thanks for posting this, as it is exactly one of the 2 episodes I mentioned in the "Cape Matapan" thread as an alarm bell that should have alerted the Italians about RN night fighting capabilities.
I said: "Italians were also underestimating the RN night fighting capabilities, despite some episode with British light cruisers at the beginning of the war should have warned them, ignoring that the RN has trained the British ships for night actions since the 30's"
Unfortunately, it took other time and many losses to convince our Admirals that RN was making excellent use of main guns at night.

Bye, Alberto
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

.

So (as you "should" argue if you believe what you wrote in the Denmark Strait action) - why weren't the Italian Admiral court martialled for incompetence ?

Why aren't you pushing for that ?
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@pgollin:
possibly for the same GOOD reasons: propaganda in wartime. I always said that the cover up was a justified need when at war with an enemy, a bit less it is 75 years after. :wink:

But for sure, no Italian officer surviving this specific action was awarded a medal on that instance, as it happened at DS............

Why I'm not pushing for that CM for incompetence ? Because in Italy someone has already asked for punishing several errors committed during the war at sea by Italian officers in a book titled "Fucilate gli ammiragli" ("Shot the admirals")...... I have not seen a lot regarding a CM after May 24 at DS from British side but perhaps you can give me a reference.......

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

.

So you merely are a troll, who wants to argue that a British Admiral who was not thought by his superiors to have done anything wrong should be court martialled, but as far as Italian Admirals who made mistakes should avoid a court martial for propaganda, or for no other reason than ONE other author mentions it !

You do know what hypocrisy is, don't you ?
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@pgollin: you merely show once more to everybody that you are just unable to watch your language. :kaput:

My point is that critics for the Italian officers actions (like this one) have already been done in the literature, and I personally fully agree with them.

The only critics I have seen re. DS officers are related to Holland (who bravely died trying to perform his duty). Otherwise, no writer has been willing to dig into the decisions of the other officers involved yet, but it will come.......
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

.

One author equates to "done in literature" - you seem to have double standards.

The "digging" done by authors re. Denmark Straits has shown that their senior officers agreed with the actions taken - it is only your hypocritical attitudes towards court martials in different navies that continues your trolling.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

One is better than NOBODY.
As you know, most of authors are in agreement to criticize the Italian Admirals during WWII (and I'm with them, as already said).

Your reference of any critic to RN surviving officers at DS ? None, as usual ? :lol:

Up to now, I have just seen books (even today, e.g. Bennett "Hunting Tirpitz" in 2012 :shock: ) that refer to incorrect documents to embellish the story ("PoW fighting on alone for 13 minutes" after Hood explosion)
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

.

Having said that you were happy with one (!) author, you now say that one is better than none ! - you are really scraping at the bottom of the barrel.

I did not say anything about criticising officers at Denmark Strait - so my not giving any is hardly surprising - you seem to be rather confused.

Why not deal with your hypocrisy instead of imagining things ?
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

very simpy:
we are discussing (in another thread) DS possible inquiry/CM for some officers' actions that were NEVER seriously and critically examinated as per my example above (Bennett's book).

On the other side, Italian officers deficiencies have already been discussed several times and are now an historical fact.

You seem to be confused (and, of course, unable to provide any example)......
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

Again you show your hypocrisy. The actions were examined by the senior officers who decided that Leach's actions were correct.

Whereas you have, hypocritically decided that ONE AUTHOR (no naval authority) having criticised the actions of at least two Italian Admirals IS sufficient despite their actions never having been examined by Italian naval authorities.

Can't you see just how stupid your attitude is ? Can't you see that you are holding two totally opposed standards ?

.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Sorry, I'm not. I'm using the same standard and AGAIN I confirm that IMHO after the action of this thread, an Inquiry for incompetence WAS due (and if not held, I'm not sure it was not, probably just for propaganda reasons). In other cases (like the Duisburg convoy mentioned by A.Raven) an inquiry was done and 2 officers lost their command for this. In the RN, after Spartivento battle, there was an inquiry (for much less than at DS) that discharged (correctly IMHO) Somerville.

However, at least after the war , RM admirals and commanding officers WERE criticized for their unsuitability in all the circumstances where they deserved it.

With exactly the same standard, I do think that, after Denmark Straits, an inquiry was well due (also to allow the involved officers to explain their behaviour), and possibly correctly not held for propaganda reasons.

My point is that NOBODY seems to have looked critically at their actions on May 24 from an historical and military viewpoint even after 75 years, as per my example from Bennett's book (see above post), with PoW still heroically fighting alone for 13 minutes. :negative:
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

Post by pgollin »

.

Carefully worded, but still hypocritical.

You carefully ignored the fact that according to your supposed standard at least two Italian Admirals should have been court martialled over Matapan (plus whoever was in contact them at the Italian Admiralty) and YOU should be pressing for this action and indeed pressing for an enquiry into why it wasn't done, what cover-ups took place and the ritual humiliation of ALL authors since then who have failed to press for such inquiries, accusing them of cover-ups.

PLEASE try looking at your words regarding the Denmark Straits and with regards to Matapan and note your hypocrisy
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