An All Time Favorite With Possible Sinister Overtones

[A Raven]

Dear Phil,
Letting you know that I am still actively writing, and have arrived at the point of describing the many and glorious victories achieved by the Italian Navy. As I said in the past, I am going to have so much fun, especially when referencing those Italian apologists.
Will be in touch.
Yours
WR

[Alberto Virtuani]

You seem not to understand that n my opinion a CM was due after MAtapan. However only ONE Admiral should have been court-martialled: Iachino. I hope you don't ask a CM for Cattaneo who lost his life during the action.....

I just pointed out some defensive points that Iachino could have used to defend himself in front of a CM, calling into a co-responsibility the chiefs of Supermarina.

At the end, Iachino was not court-martialled as well as Leach, Wake-Walker and Ellis. However he received the most tough criticism after the war, while everybody seem happy to think that the 3 RN officers behaviour was perfect at DS...... That's why I ask for an historical review of their actions (for sure I don't want to Court Martial anybody after 75 years).

[pgollin]

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You're squirming again - you desperately keep avoiding the issue that ALL those Italian authors have avoided the issue of court martials and yet you do not condemn them as you condemn the British/American authors who have the opinions of senior Admiralty figures who agreed with Leech's actions.

Why don't you write a set of articles, or a book even, listing the failings of the Italian Navy's senior leadership ? The lack of suitable escort vessels ordered pre-war, the idiocy of not bringing home Italian vessels before the declaration of war, the lack of oil storage, the lack of port facilities both in Southern Italy and North Africa, poor strategy and training, political interference in the running of the navy - the list just goes on and on..........

It is a shame that your hypocrisy is seemingly unable to look over your shoulder.

[Alberto Virtuani]

and you are unable to see how ridiculous is what you are repeating since a while, Many authors (and myself) criticized the Italian WWII high officers.

There is NO author who "dared" criticize the RN surviving officers actions at DS since 75 years ......

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

just to make things clear ...

Nobody in Italy during World War 2 and even before, ... at least that I am aware of, ... received Official decoration/medals instead of a deserved inquiry/court martial for his conduct in front of the enemy.

Additionally, for no Officers the Italian Admiralty did modify previously released official/signed declarations and produced/accepted incorrect documents in order to change the facts/events and consequently enable/sustain the above mentioned decorations delivered on October 14, 1941.

If you have evidence about similar events occurred on the Italian Navy on WW2 or before, please produce them here in, ... just as we have been able to do for the Royal Navy Officers involved on the Denmark Strait battle.

Who served his country in any uniform, ... Air, Army or Navy, ... being a soldier or like in my case being an Officer, ... knows very well what this means from a military stand point.

Bye Antonio

[pgollin]

and you are unable to see how ridiculous is what you are repeating since a while, Many authors (and myself) criticized the Italian WWII high officers.

There is NO author who "dared" criticize the RN surviving officers actions at DS since 75 years ......

Alberto, you only claimed ONE Italian author had stated that Italian Admirals should have been court martialled - have you found more ? Who are they ?

IF you think that no authors who have criticised Leech you are severely mistaken - but mostly they took the balanced view that his senior officers agreed with his actions.

You seem to be believing your own, incorrect, propaganda.

[Alberto Virtuani]

I'm a bit annoyed to have to demonstrate to you things that everybody agrees on and that you pretend not to be aware of.

I'm currently on vacation and not with all my books with me, however here you are with another example: from the preface of Arrigo Petacco book "Le battaglie navali del mediterraneo nella seconda guerra mondiale" (Mondadori)"

......i marinai sacrificati per l'inferiorita' dei mezzi e per l'inettitudine dei comandanti......

".....the sailors sacrificed due to the inferiority of their armament and due to the unsuitability of their commanding officers.....

Do you have one who says Italian admirals were outstanding during WWII ? Of course not as usual and please don't say that it's me who have to demonstrate this point..... it's just ridiculous.

I don't believe in any propaganda re. RM. The favourable propaganda is anyway much less than the negative propaganda......and I'm 100% critic against the RM Italian commanding officers during WWII as I am against 3 RN surviving officers decorated after the DS. For sure I'm not an "apologist" and I'm more of the "shot the admirals" party.


If I'm severely mistaken, as you say, and some authors have criticized Leach, Wake.Walker and Ellis actions, PLEASE provide a reference (it should be easy if the error is so severe....), as I asked already. Of course you are just unable to do that (as you were unable to substantiate any of your ideas up to now.......) and you will be happy to continue trusting the comfortable DS account that the official history has provided up to now: PoW fighting heroically alone (in some accounts for 13 minutes ) before retreating severely damaged and Norfolk and Suffolk just unable to join the battle.......
A nice tale to tell the children before going to bed......

[pgollin]

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I don't see the author asking for a Court Martial, merely a throwaway remark with no real condemnation.

You keep on avoiding the fact that the senior officers agreed with Leech's (etc...) actions - it is you who have decided that with no war experience that your opinion somehow matters.

This shows you hypocrisy. On the one hand you desperately gloss over both the pre-war and wartime failings of many, many Italian Admirals and on the other you want to over-rule the opinions of senior RN Admirals.

It would really help if you were consistent and not demonstrate your bias.

[Alberto Virtuani]

it would really help if you could substantiate your words and not only show that you have nothing in your hands.....
you said I'm severely mistaken saying that no author has criticized the above 3 RN officers at DS. PLEASE provide examples (you have provided 0 evidences up to now)......

The fact that senior officers (who? can you be a bit more precise?) agreed on their decisions means nothing:: after Matapan, Adm Riccardi (the equivalent in the RM of the First Sea Lord) agreed on Iachino decisions; and so what ? I think an inquiry would have been more than due in both cases.

Speaking about war experience, what is yours ? Have you any military experience ?

In any case, if you want to comfortably go on believing the fairy tale about DS, you are welcome.

[pgollin]

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Yet again the squirming comes back.

First, yet again, you try to turn back the responsibility for providing the evidence on me instead of yourself. Why do you keep doing this - it merely highlights the fact that you made a claim and yet cannot substantiate it. Where are these other Italian authors calling for italian admirals to have been court martialled ?

You keep ignoring your hypocrisy

[Alberto Virtuani]

Total nonsense. I provided already 2 evidences (and I will not spend my time to demonstrate that horses don't fly) . You provided NOTHING as usual to substantiate your claims. You said above I'm severely mistaken. Please provide evidence, if you are able......
Which are the authors that criticized Leach, WW and Ellis actions ?

Apparently you want to comfortably go on believing the fairy tales about DS, but this is over now after 75 years of "incorrect" (to use a nice word) statements.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

Guidelines received by Admiral John Godfrey ( Naval Intelligence Director ) from Sir Winston Churchill on September 1939.

Good news was made to seem better; bad news was toned down, delayed or sometimes suppressed.

From : David Reynolds - In Command of History - London - Penguin 2005 at page 114.

David Reynolds is Professor of International History at Cambridge University and a Fellow of Christ's College. He is the author of two prize winning studies of Anglo-American relations in World War Two - The Creation of the Anglo-American Alliance, 1937-1941 and Rich Relations: the American Occupation of Britain, 1942-1945 - and One World Divisible: A Global History Since 1945.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0141019646/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

The above declaration is confirming what evidence on several occurrence we are discussing about clearly shows.

There was an intentional alteration of the events, ... for war propaganda reasons.

As simple as that ...

Bye Antonio

[pgollin]

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Antonio - that was propaganda AND WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THAT (as so should you).

[pgollin]

.

Alberto -

Still squirming and avoiding the issue of your hypocrisy

[Alberto Virtuani]

@pgollin:
still posting NOTHING else than nonsense......

Please if you want to continue this discussion in a constructive way, PROVIDE EVIDENCE why I'm severely mistaken (as YOU said) and post an example (differently than you, I will be happy with just one ) of an author who dared to criticize the 3 above RN officer's actions...... Good luck !