Cover up synopsis

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wadinga
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

You have said
Antonio reconstruction can have some defects and still needs corrections, no doubts about that
and the problem is using this highly defective construction to hang a Giant Conspiracy Theory on.

Exposure of the many defects over 2 years, and as even Alecsandros is currently doing in another thread, by showing how something as basic as the Bismarck salvo timetable is fundamentally wrong, which means the individual "timestamping" of stills is wrong, and since Bismarck's estimated track is derived from interpretation of the photos relative to PG's published track, it is also wrong. It follows that if it is impossible to time Leach's panic stricken order to "run away" to within 50 or was it 38 seconds of the first hit by Bismarck, then the Giant Conspiracy Theory falls apart.

Any observations on shortcomings in any part of the reconstruction are instantly met with a barrage of highly biased jibes about "shameful" imprecisions and quite reasonable changes in testimony when witnesses become aware of new facts are characterized as lying. :negative: I have lost count of how many times I have been told something you admit "Antonio reconstruction can have some defects and still needs corrections" is actually a proven fact and any further dispute is pointless, and demands to produce something better or shut up!

If it still has defects and needs corrections it is not proof of the Cover Up. Antonio has often said:
Cui bono
but he as yet to prove a crime was committed, and therefore that there is a culprit and has proceeded straight to sentencing.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote:""06:13 is no proof of a cover up and it's not necessary to mention it every time."
Marc, it is part of the embellishment, together with the 15 sm , the Plot" and........ Please note that still today authors are using this UNBELIEVABLE timing to write their books (e.g. even my friend Adm.Santarini at pag.51 of his book, or Bennet from Dartmouth in his "Hunting the Tirpitz"...) :shock:

Wadinga wrote "produce something better or shut up!"
Hi Sean,
we totally agree ! I couldn't have said it better. That's the point: Antonio reconstruction is for sure more reliable than the "official fairy tale" , I wait for something matching or beating his work.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by alecsandros »

Maybe it was more of a sugarcoating of the facts rather than a full blown cover up...

But some tampering of the facts was in place...
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote:Do Rodney and KGV count? :D
On May 27th ?
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Herr Nilsson »

alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:Do Rodney and KGV count? :D
On May 27th ?
Yep!
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:Do Rodney and KGV count? :D
On May 27th ?
Yep!
:D
Cag
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Cag »

Hi All,
Again a very interesting debate. May I ask the source for the Captain Leach message of 'about' eight o clock on the 24th.
Thanks in advance,
Best wishes,
Cag.
dunmunro
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dunmunro wrote: "Why couldn't Norfolk and Suffolk see each other?"
Hi Duncan,
I can just imagine because of different , asymmetrical visibility conditions in that direction (very common at sea, even between the same 2 ships, one seeing the other but not the viceversa, as I experienced myself.....) or just because lookouts in both ships were concentrated on enemy......


[

You're inventing facts to "cover-up" the flaws in the cover-up theory. The fact that Norfolk and Suffolk couldn't see each other, until well after the action, destroys the conspiracy theory.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro
:?:
Hi Duncan
same kind of "argument" for you: Why Germans never saw mirages on 24 ? Please"invent' your explanation.... :D

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
dunmunro
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Dunmunro
:?:
Hi Duncan
same kind of "argument" for you: Why Germans never saw mirages on 24 ? Please"invent' your explanation.... :D

Bye, Alberto
Sorry, but distraction isn't an answer to this question. Suffolk and Norfolk should have been plainly visible to one another for the conspiracy theory to work and they weren't visible to each other. This one fact destroys the entire conspiracy theory, but that's the problem with conspiracy theories; they inevitably have too many internal inconsistencies for the tale to stand and be believable.
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Dunmunro
:?:
Hi Duncan
same kind of "argument" for you: Why Germans never saw mirages on 24 ? Please"invent' your explanation.... :D

Bye, Alberto
Sorry, but distraction isn't an answer to this question. Suffolk and Norfolk should have been plainly visible to one another for the conspiracy theory to work and they weren't visible to each other. This one fact destroys the entire conspiracy theory, but that's the problem with conspiracy theories; they inevitably have too many internal inconsistencies for the tale to stand and be believable.
... Who says they weren't visible to one another ?
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro
I answered your question (kindly).
You said I invent and you did not answer my question.

Who is distracting? :negative:

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I see a lot of “ meat on the fireplace “, … very good.

Ok, lets start from my December 2005 re-construction, surely good for 11 years ago and enough to dismantle the “ reversed photo theory “, but with some mistakes on it … and surely possible to be improved with my future release.

Today, and I thank for the nice compliments, it is surely still the most precise and better re-construction of this battle out there.

If anybody will publish something about it from now on, … it will be my pleasure to read it and comment about it, … just like I did for Santarini book and for many other books about Bismarck and Denmark Strait, … where even my older 2003 version was “ plagiarized “ taken and used.

Moving to the famous “ 06.13” time for PoW retreat, we long discussed about it time ago.
It is wrong and it was corrected officially by the Royal Navy Admiralty on 1948.
It is useless to discuss about this any more, given the Official Royal Navy Admiralty new position/correction about it.
We can discuss about why it was written erroneously at first, but not the fact that it was surely wrong.

Same apply for the “ around 15 sea miles “ distance for Suffolk/Norfolk and for “ The Plot “.

@ Herr Nilsson,

what is the “ Official Version “ of the battle you are referring to ?
I am curious about it now.

I like your comments :
To make it clear, I don't want to discredit anyones work.
Antonio's reconstruction including a cover up is one possible solution.
Yes, I consider it possible.
I even consider it possible that there was some embellishment.
But the whole storyline is built on very shaky ground and sometimes so far-fetched, that it's very unlikely.
In my opinion it needs to many bells and whistles to work (the poor Captain Phillips for example ).
That's why I think it leads into a dead end.
I'm pretty sure that there is a much more elegant solution.
Thanks for allowing my current theory to be possible.

I like and respect others opinion, especially your one.

This is the reason why I asked your help as well as the one of many others here in because of your competences, … even the “ British Hooligans “ refusing everything in line of principle.

Lets work on this in a productive way.

@ Wadinga,

I have asked you a precise question days ago about the 06.03 and 45 seconds timing correlation with PoW GAR gunnery map local salvo 20th landing and the Prinz Eugen battle map first turn.

Instead of keep on writing that everything I am making is surely incorrect because cannot be demostrated being 100 % perfect, … which is useless, … stay on the singular questions and respond : do you agree with me or not ? If not : Why ? What is your timing for those events ?

@ Alecsandros,

Tampering, … Sugar Coat ( what about Chocolate coating ? ) … Embellishment ( Ref. Churchill suggestion to Godfrey ) … or Cover Up, … the point remains that somebody took the “ freedom “ to intentionally change some data, previous declarations, distances and timing, … even produced an incorrect map for a board, … and by doing this created the reference base to sell a different story of this battle events.
You can call it the way you like it better … but that was surely done.

Personally I cannot see a more “ elegant way “ to describe it … rather that writing the truth without personal comments, … enabling the readers to make up their own opinion about all this.

@ Dunmunro,

we have so many changes of previous released declarations by Suffolk ( Ellis ) and Norfolk ( Wake-Walker ) that one can realize what was true from what was incorrect ( false ) still with lot of difficulties.
This is the problem, … and demonstrate the evident “ cover up “ activity being done.

Talking about changing initial declarations ... here following we have another evidence about it.

@ CAG,

here for you the radio message sent by Capt Leach a couple of hours after the battle on May 24th, 1941 :
PoW_radio_msg_May_24_0800_01.jpg
PoW_radio_msg_May_24_0800_01.jpg (83.43 KiB) Viewed 855 times

No comments are required ... after having read the PoW Gunnery report, ... and in fact Capt Leach did change his initial version other 2 times ... on May 27th, ... and finally on June 4th, 1941 ... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Dunmunro
:?:
Hi Duncan
same kind of "argument" for you: Why Germans never saw mirages on 24 ? Please"invent' your explanation.... :D

Bye, Alberto
Sorry, but distraction isn't an answer to this question. Suffolk and Norfolk should have been plainly visible to one another for the conspiracy theory to work and they weren't visible to each other. This one fact destroys the entire conspiracy theory, but that's the problem with conspiracy theories; they inevitably have too many internal inconsistencies for the tale to stand and be believable.
... Who says they weren't visible to one another ?
They weren't visible to one another until ~0620 IIRC. That's in the reports somewhere but in his unpublished memoirs, written more than 30 years later, which Antonio holds as Ellis' "confession" to relieve his tortured soul, Ellis (CO of Suffolk) states:

It snowed during the night, and the wind rose. About dawn it
cleared to the southeast and southward, and we could see ice-blink
to the north and west. But we still could not see any other British
ship. The Norfolk was still miles out of sight and qunrange when
the action between the Germans and the Hood and Prince of Wales
began. Of our battleships we could see only the funnel tops and the gun flashes.


Ellis goes on to state that Suffolk was 18k yards astern of Bismarck but he obviously had forgotten Suffolk's 360deg turn made a few minutes before to open the range beyond effective gun range which also placed him out of sight of Norfolk.
alecsandros
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Re: Cover up synopsis

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
It snowed during the night, and the wind rose. About dawn it
cleared to the southeast and southward, and we could see ice-blink
to the north and west. But we still could not see any other British
ship. The Norfolk was still miles out of sight and qunrange when
the action between the Germans and the Hood and Prince of Wales
began. Of our battleships we could see only the funnel tops and the gun flashes.


Ellis goes on to state that Suffolk was 18k yards astern of Bismarck but he obviously had forgotten Suffolk's 360deg turn made a few minutes before to open the range beyond effective gun range which also placed him out of sight of Norfolk.
... Ok,
But why do you think this is exactly what happened ? People make mistakes, especialy when remembering things from many years ago. The Baron also made a ton !
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