Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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dunmunro
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:14 pm

alecsandros wrote:Duncan,
It was a difficult position for Capt Leach to be in.


Usualy effective firing range was 50% of max ballistic range, meaning 12km for the 150mm guns and 9km for the 105mm guns...
And if Leach had maintained a steady course PoW would have closed to within 12km range by ~0602

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:18 pm

dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:Duncan,
It was a difficult position for Capt Leach to be in.


Usualy effective firing range was 50% of max ballistic range, meaning 12km for the 150mm guns and 9km for the 105mm guns...
And if Leach had maintained a steady course PoW would have closed to within 12km range by ~0602
That's true...
But if he would mantain 14km range, he would be relatively safe from secondary gunfire... What he didn't know was that the Germans were about to manouvre hard , and lose him from their sights... If he could anticipate that, he could have stayed on course and fire at least a few full salvos before Bismarck resumed course... Hard to shoot at a rapid target at a bad angle... But still... He had that chance.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:22 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "PoW was firing slowly if you consider her 14in output % along with the salvo rate."
Hi Duncan,
From 5:55 to 6:00 she delivered the SAME number of shells as Bismarck. If you consider Bismarck rate of fire as a slow one.....

you wrote: "....Don't try and laugh that off or ignore it.... "
I do, because the entire discussion here started from Sean post trying to say that the RoF of PoW was slow.....
This is simply NOT TRUE ! It was as fast as Bismarck and I hope we don't loose other time to deny simple proved facts.

I agree with you that PoW was not in an easy situation after 6:00, but here we start a completely different discussion about the opportunity to stay there and (try to) accomplish the mission before giving up, or to disengage immediately with the evident risk to loose contact.

I have my opinion here but I can respect a different one. What I can't accept anymore is the attempt to mask the historical reality with the same incorrect excuses used for 75 years to justify a debatable decision and sell it as the only, unavoidable, option. The choice was well possible.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:56 am

Hello Alberto,

How easy it is to twist reality with statistics. A spot of imaginative averaging things out over a selected period and you can get the result you want. Except we know the Baron said Schneider ordered "Full salvos good rapid"

Here is Antonio actually deriving Bismarck's fastest firing rate. The rate Leach was on the receiving end of and more than doubled if you include PG's faster-firing salvos as well.
Bismarck showed on that film portion is firing the "Wirkungsschießen" to HMS Prince of Wales while running straight 270 degree course west, in fact she had just completed the turn to starboard and she is running straight immediately after.
HMS PoW fall of last 2 Y turret shells to confirm time and situation on the film portion.

As written above we can see on the tape :



05.10 A+B fire
05.11 C+D fire

05.34 A+B fire
05.35 C+D fire

06.03 A+B fire
06.04 C+D fire

06.35 A+B for sure,.. hard to say C+D since the camera lost the Bismarck while she was firing and the smoke is already leaving the ship,..from midship,..this is why A+B fired for sure,...... but the smoke is very dense and big , ..... so it can be that C+D fired too.... obviously...


So an interval of 24 seconds on the first observation, than 29 seconds, and finally 32 seconds.

It makes average 28.3 seconds,..best is 24,..worst is 32.

Prinz Eugen first artillery officer declared average 27-28 seconds on the battle.

Ciao Antonio :D
So the fastest reload and fire for Bismarck is 24 secs and the fastest for PoW is 50 (achieved on only three occasions) and mostly 1:10. I really think you and Antonio need to have a talk........... :D

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:10 am

@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
if you are saying that Bismarck "could" under certain conditions (elevation etc) fire more quickly, I can possibly agree with you but I don't see how she could at 6:04.
In your interesting speculation, Bismarck fired 8 semi-salvos, 32 shots, in 2 minutes around 6:04-6:05 (the film shows PoW salvo 20 and 21 landing, so time is almost sure, but it doesn't tell us how BS was firing her guns, Schneider words ("Full salvos good rapid") are referred by the Baron BEFORE Hood exploded, at 6:04, with the target obscured by her smoke and quickly opening range, I doubt this was the way Schneider fired his guns....). We know that BS fired 40 shots before sinking Hood at 6:00. As a consequence, in your view, she fired very slowly between 6:00 and 6:03 (21 shots only minus the shots fired between 6:06 and 6:09.....) exactly when PoW was heavily hit 3 times (6:00:50 - 6:02) and fire rate should have been the maximum possible..... It simply makes no sense at all. :negative:
Please present your own complete salvo plot of Bismarck (93 actual shots, 104 (or maximum 112) ordered to fire from 5:55 till 6:09) if you want to demonstrate that BS actually achieved a faster RoF than 2 semi-salvos per minute..... :think:


What is sure, is that between 5:55 and 6:00 the 2 ships fired with the SAME Rate of Fire (1,895 PoW and 1,86 BS). The number of shell is the same (41 PoW and 40 BS, the 10 14" guns compensating for the lower output %) and the hit rate is possibly favorable to PoW (3 to 2). This is not a statistic, it's just the reality that you refuse to admit in order to justify at any cost Leach decision to disengage (and, doing so, I think you are unfair with the whole PoW crew, especially the gunners). :stubborn:

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:47 am

P.S. @Antonio:
do you have an evaluation of the salvos fired by Bismarck during the whole action minute by minute, and most of all, how was she firing (ladders, semi-salvos, doubles, broadsides...)

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:12 pm

Hi All,
Have had a think and now my brain hurts! I still do not quite get the 3 local control salvoes fired? If the first salvo was a double shot as suggested that would mean Y1 and Y4 firing? We know that at Salvo 20 only Y1 and Y4 would have been available to fire again, as Y2 was out of action from salvo 14 onwards and Y3 was unavailable from salvo 15 up to and including salvo 20 ( From 15 to 20). Does this then mean that there was a delay between salvo 19 and 20 to enable either Y1 or Y4 to be reloaded or had the British revealed a secret weapon, that their 14 inch weapons were capable of loading two shells and two sets of cordite charges at once, but able to only set off one set of cordite charges and firing one shell whilst the other set of cordite was left intact ready to fire in the next salvo? (This is my vain attempt at a joke!).
Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:23 pm

Cag wrote: "Does this then mean that there was a delay between salvo 19 and 20 to enable either Y1 or Y4 to be reloaded"
Hi Mr Cag,
it was my same doubt when Duncan correctly pointed out that Y1 and Y4 fired the double shell salvo (19) as Y3 was still out of action.

I guess they fired locally what they had ready to be fired, but your point mkes sense to me, we should expect to have a larger delay (45 or 55 seconds) between salvo 19 and 20, while in the film we see that salvo 21 is quite close to 20 (around 16 seconds).

That's why IMHO I tend to time salvo 20 and 21 landing at around 6:04:20 and 6:04:40, while salvo 19 is precisely timed by Antonio (based on PG course and PoW position) as landing at 6:03:25.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:37 pm

Hi All,
Thanks Alberto, is it possible that the image of salvo 19 is out of focus and we can only see one shell landing? That would mean that the film then shows salvoes 20 and 21 but one of the salvo 21 shells landing is missed by the camera? If they were firing salvoes I agree that they would have fired what was available but would not have deviated from the salvo firing procedure, ie only a single at 19 (Y1 only gun available ) a single at 20 (Y4 only gun available) and then the reloaded Y1 and the now available Y3 at 21?
Now my brain hurts even more!
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:55 pm

@Mr.Cag,
Hi,
I would say from the photo NH69731 that it is clearly a 2 shells salvo, well short. I don't know whether someone has a better resolution image.....
NH69731_detail.jpg
NH69731_detail.jpg (30.25 KiB) Viewed 735 times
I'm not the expert here, perhaps Duncan can clarify what was the standard way of firing in local control (salvos or broadsides, or...just what was available as I suspect now, forgetting the odd/even alternation).

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:07 pm

Hi All,
I think to be fair to Dunmonro his analysis is from accepted wisdom, and therefore follows that principle and is well executed. I agree that there does seem to be two shell splashes in the image which means that if this was salvo 19, then there must have been a delay for the gun to be set to gun loading elevation, 5 degrees, breech opening, gun loading cage to have been raised the shell rammed the loading cage to cycle, the 1st cordite charges to be rammed, the cage to cycle, and the second set of cordite to be rammed the cage to lower and the breech closed and the gun elevated to firing position (We won't worry about the working chamber transverser or bridging cycles as hopefully this would have occured durin salvo 19). So quite a delay.
Hope this helps with the scenario, and must mean that these last salvoes were more protracted than first thought?
Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:39 pm

Hi All,
I think again to be fair to Dunmonro we should wait until his GAR reports are completed, which must be a task and a half, which may resolve the problem. We have to trust those in the know who have put in hard work to resolve the timelines etc, like Antonio and try to resolve the little glitches (I got your book by the way as a birthday present excellent!).
As always with respect,
Best wishes,
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:49 pm

Just to refresh people's memory:

Image

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:08 pm

Hello Alberto,

It is not I who have postulated the much higher RoF for short periods for Bismarck, but Antonio, based on his analysis of the film of what actually happened. Take up the meaning of
"Wirkungsschießen"
with him. :D

You say
What is sure, is that between 5:55 and 6:00 the 2 ships fired with the SAME Rate of Fire (1,895 PoW and 1,86 BS). The number of shell is the same (41 PoW and 40 BS,
Errm I don't get that. PoW fired her 1st salvo at 05 53 10 according to the salvo plot 3 guns only. Her 4th salvo of 2 guns only was fired 05 54 45. She fired 10 shells before 05:55.

Her first salvo after 05:55 was the fifth at 05 55 30 of 2 guns. Her last before 06:00 was the thirteenth at 05 59 40 of 3 guns. Making 27 rounds only between 05:55 and 06:00 whereas Bismarck fires 40. Only PoW's 9th and 10th salvoes achieve 4 shells whereas Bismarck achieves 4 on every salvo.

Duncan thanks for republishing your analysis- would it be possible to add timings based on the salvo chart?

We may have an excellent record for PoW, but I don't think anything similar exists for Bismarck as such records lie at the bottom of the Atlantic. Antonio has published on the Hood site a timetable postulating 8 rounds per minute, in every minute, from 05:55 to 06:05 inclusive, dropping to 4 on the minute every minute, as Bismarck turned away. This was done some time ago so I don't know whether he stands by it today or whether new information like his analysis of the film has convinced him the RoF varied over time. If Antonio's estimate is correct, then Bismarck fired 10 salvoes in the time PoW fired 9.

It is, as many have pointed out, extremely unlikely there was no check in firing rate after Hood was destroyed, and unreliable sources like the Baron :shock: suggest there was a delay whilst the target was switched, although to honour the "Leach panics theory" PoW must be hit by Bismarck instants after Hood explodes. To suggest otherwise would discredit the whole theory. :D

Bismarck's firing rate may have varied considerably during the action, and not complied with Antonio's metronomic timetable.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:33 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

a small question to you my friend :

Who wrote : " Course had to be altered to starboard to avoid remains of "Hood"; meanwhile "Bismarck" had shifted main and secondary armament fire quickly and accurately onto "Prince of Wales".

A heavy hit was felt almost immediately. "

As you can realize ... there was not much time between the 2 events according to Capt Leach own words ... just seconds ... and the PG film is telling us precisely when the Bismarck salvo landed on PoW, ... just between PoW salvo 15th and 16th, ... as we can see.

The events timetable is there to be realized for the ones that like to know the truth.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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