Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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Cag
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:36 pm

Hi All,
Thanks Alberto I do agree and do understand your position and respect your opinion, I do think that if McMullen had have had one gun in action he'd have said the guns were ok, but then he did not have the responsibility for a 7 million pound deperately needed battleship on his hands! (His focus was on hitting the Bismarck the many turret problems were the Ordnance Officer and turret captains problem!) As for the hit rate, well, number of times PoW hits a German ship, 3, number of times Bismarck hits a British ship, 5, (Eins -Null) number of times Prinz Eugen hits a British ship, 6, (Zwei- Null) Germany Wins! As for output and rate of fire I'll have to have a look at Bismarck and Prinz Eugens figures, I know there are some anomalies, Suffolks log states cease fire on both sides 0612, Norfolk 0614, 'The Baron' 0609-10, Kriegstagesbuch, 0620? I know according to the Baron Bismarck opened fire at 0555 with a salvo (4 or 8?) then a bracket was ordered, 'The Baron' says this was 3 salvos in the air at the same time, but in his description of the battle he says the long salvo was over the short straddling, so I assume 2 salvos not 3 (2 and 2 or 4 and 4?) then good rapid full salvos was ordered just after 0557 (8 guns?). Salvos 4,5,6, were at Hood 5 causing Hood to explode and 6 falling into the area Hood had been, (All 8 gun salvos?) then change target to PoW, this causes a problem as Hood sank in a couple of minutes, (0603?) and yet as far as history is concerned the PoW had already turned away under smoke! So I'll study Antonio's work to try see where I've gone wrong!
Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:55 pm

Cag wrote:"As for the hit rate, well, number of times PoW hits a German ship, 3, number of times Bismarck hits a British ship, 5, (Eins -Null)....."
Hi Mr.Cag,
I wrote: "number of (PoW) hits was even better (until Hood avoidance maneuver)" so until 6:00. Bismarck hit 2 times, PoW 3..... I think we have to withdraw this "goal"..... :wink:

Re. RoF, if Bismarck fired 93 shells and you move further on her cease fire, you will just have a worse RoF......but I'm happy you will study Antonio article and his new researches, a lot of them are in the threads we have discussed in this very forum, starting with the "megathread" (Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War). I'm sure your contribution will be immensely valuable.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:09 pm

Hello Cag,

Welcome to The Defence. Although you have laboured mightily to avoid being sucked into the gravity well of our long-standing argument, it stretches over several threads and years and has generated many unfortunate tensions amongst those who comprise the Denmark Straits Study Group.

You have now arrived independently at the same place as so many others. Some have since drifted away, frustrated, some remain to ensure this gross distortion and calumny does not remain uncontested. :angel:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

A Raven

Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by A Raven » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:07 am

I for one am still waiting for the article to appear that defams Captain Leech. If and when it does, I will peer review in line with official documents and historical perspective.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:10 pm

Hi All,
Thanks Wadinga I didn't realise that I had become part of the defence, I'm still attempting to keep an open mind but my my sticking point is logic, 'if it don't seem logical' it worries me! (Sad I know) I do feel if I started a subject about would it be nice to see more Americans in Moto GP or will Valentino Rossi reach his 10th title, within three posts we'd be discussing the relative merits of Captain Leach!
Could I ask a couple of questions? We have a bit of a discrepancy in the total number of shells fired by Bismarck. Prinz Eugen I'm fine with 179 shells fired out of a possible 184 (179 divided by 184 x 100= 97.28% output loss rate 2.72%) PoW I'm fine with (55 divided by 74 x 100= 74.32% output a loss rate of 25.68%) but Bismarck either had a potential output of 104 in Antonio's outstanding account or in Alecsandros's excellent work 112, so which is correct? (93 divided by 112 x 100= 83.03% output 16.97%loss or 93 divided by 104 x 100= 89.42% output 10.58% loss) I realise there is only a little differencein the two and it seems both German ships have a better overall output, but it'd be nice to be sure, and would like an experts advice. Also to Alecandros, when you posted about the lower German RoF could this have been caused by the employment of firing ripple or full salvos, meaning that all guns had to be loaded at the same time, where as the British fired salvos with only half their guns, meaning a second salvo could follow within a short space of time whilst the previously fired guns were being reloaded? The hit rate, I take your point Alberto maybe it depends on whether you want to discuss specific moments in the battle or in overall terms, and I admit that either can be made to suit a thesis, but with Hood sinking, maybe Germany wins on Penalties?
May I also say hello to Mr Raven and thank him for his books, (I'm still struggling with PoW's camo!) despite the sometimes heated moments, I do still regard it as a privilege to contribute to this forum alongside all of you.
Best wishes,
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:36 pm

@Mr Cag,
The first to get the merits should be Antonio, who worked the most in detailing the Battle of Denmark Strait.
I only used his published documents to form a picture over the evolution of the battle over several time frames.

Commenting a bit on the numbers of shells: Prinz Eugen's log mentions 157 x 203mm rounds fired (8 nose fuzed, 149 base-fuzed); 78 x 105mm rounds fired versus surface targets; 31 x 105mm fired versus air targets. Total number of 203mm shells ordered to be fired was 187 or 189, if I read correctly the KTB.

Concerning "ripple salvos" - which were noted by observers on Prince of Wales, IIRC, that was due to one particular firing device present on board Bismarck (possibly also Prinz Eugen ?). The device fired the guns individualy, as the target ship passed through their line of fire. Thus it appeared a very small lag between 2 guns form the same turret, and between 2 adjacent turrets. Maybe 0.25 seconds or less.

It is conceivable that using this system made the overall artillery (8 guns per ship) to unload the shells somewhat later than the fastest possible moment. Thorsten Wahl and Tommy should know more about this, if they are around...

P.S. the name of the system used was "Vorzündwerk", part of the "Seitenvorzündwerk"...

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:07 pm

"Cag wrote:: "Prinz Eugen I'm fine with 179 shells fired out of a possible 184 (179 divided by 184 x 100= 97.28% output loss rate 2.72%"
Hi Mr Cag,
I don't fully recognize your estimate for PG output: where are they from ? PG was affected by a similar problem than PoW A1 gun, with a fore gun in B turret that missed a great part of the battle (14 rounds).
Please see the Prinz Eugen KTB (in particular Paulus Jasper (1st GO)) for the details at this address:
http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/pg-ktb.zip

If we want to use the same criteria used for PoW (where we count the A1 gun shots as ordered to fire), then PG fired only 157 8" rounds out of 179 ordered to fire (missing 2+13 in turret B, 8 in turret A and 2 each in turret C and D). Therefore her output was 85,3 %.

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:19 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

your admission of a " defence " line needed for the Royal Navy Officers involved on the action under a more careful scrutiny does not surprise me at all.

But Sean, ... my friend, ... your " Maginot " is useless, ... because the truth is out there already and will be published in the future, so everybody will have a chance to read what really happened and compare it with what has been declared and printed for more than 70 years.

History research and a more precise and supported publication cannot be stopped because a " side taken " defence approach do not like this to happen :negative: .

Sorry for you, but I have no side to protect : British as well as German.

I work SUPER PARTES !

For the one's that like to challenge the infamy, calumny, defamation and distorsion, I suggest them to fucus on the Royal Navy Admiralty Battle Summary Nr 5 for the PoW declared retreat time moved from 06.13 down to 06.03 ( Capt Leach involved ) removing 10 minutes from the battle sustained before turning away on retreat, ... or on the Churchill archive Capt Ellis declarations about the 9 vs 15 sea miles distance of Suffolk from the enemy during the battle.

There are many books printed even recently that needs a good peer review and corrections, please bring forward the truth " in line with official documents and historical perspective ".
Please, do not forget Adm Tovey dispatches published on the London Gazette at point 17 and 19 as well ... :wink:

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm

If you like to get trained on making peer reviews on my published works, than I suggest you my first 2 Tirpitz books :

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/

You can read yourself some feedbacks :

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/feedback/?lang=en

Be sure that the Bismarck one about the Denmark Strait ( 2nd of 3 books planned for the Bismarck ) will be no less precise, researched and historically accurate than the Tirpitz ones.

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:33 pm

Hello Antonio,

The test of impartiality and a just decision must surely be the ability to persuade new unbiased people to become adherents to one's point of view. :think:

Yet a succession of new parties have been subjected to the detail of the Denmark Straits conspiracy theory, considered it and not one, no matter what their nationality, has adopted it apart from the original triple AAA Alliance.

And if I am not mistaken, Alecsandros finds his faith profoundly shaken from time to time. :cool:

Examination of your evidence of cowardice, deception and cover-up shows it to evaporate completely under even the lightest scrutiny. Those who admire your factual works (I include myself amongst them) are appalled to see this deviation off into controversy for controversy's sake, in what appears to be emulation of the wilder excesses of Enrico Cernuschi's notorious and unfounded attacks on the Royal Navy's veracity in WWII. :(

You may consider yourself Super Partes, but having appointed yourself Leach and Wake-Walker and Tovey's judge and character executioner, you are apparently determined to go to print with this theory. Believe me, this is unwise.

Quis judicabit ipsos judices?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:45 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

here is where you fail Sean.

I will not judge anybody for any charge, ... of course I have my personal opinion about it from the pure and esclusive military stand point.

I will just present the truth and the evidences of what happened and how it has been declared, and that will be enough for me.

But this is what you do not like to be, ... because the truth itself will be more than enough to drive everybody opinions in the right direction, ... and most likely it will not be the one that for more than 70 years has been incorrectly written.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:08 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
.....

If you like to get trained on making peer reviews on my published works, than I suggest you my first 2 Tirpitz books :

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/

You can read yourself some feedbacks :

http://bismarck-tirpitz.com/feedback/?lang=en

Be sure that the Bismarck one about the Denmark Strait ( 2nd of 3 books planned for the Bismarck ) will be no less precise, researched and historically accurate than the Tirpitz ones.

Bye Antonio :D
Antonio,

your books have a coauthor. What was your contribution to the books?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:24 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

pretty good my friend, ... pretty good, ... and soon I will be adding the third one ... :wink:

I am very satisfied with the teamwork we have been able to put together ... but just to make you happy ... I can leave all the credits to the TEAM I am part of ... I have no problems about it ... :wink:

Surely my contribution to the Bismarck second one about the Denmark Strait battle will be much higher than average ... :wink:

But, ... as you very well know, ... there are many other books that someone has realized using mainly my researched information and knowledge ... plus somebody else works too ...

Should I add them to the list for the peer reviewers ?

Better not ... because the value add of the author on top of the stolen/plagiarized information ... are mainly silly mistakes ... so the peer reviewers will find a lot of errors ... :D

Moving to a more interesting argument than loosing time on peer reviews that somebody like to do with my works ... I have a question for you or maybe also to Thorsten Wahl or anybody else that likes to share his knowledge about it.

Here the question :

can you tell us according to your knowledge in which way the Bismarck fired all her shells at Denmark Strait ?

I mean firing methodology, ... semi-salvoes vs full broadsides, ... 4 hectometers gabelgruppe ... rapid fire .... etc etc ..

This way, after PoW and hopefully KGV, ..we can add a deeper knowledge on Bismarck firing as well.

Many thanks in advance for your help ... :wink:


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:32 pm

And what was your contribution?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:43 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

nothing Marc, ... ZERO ( 0 ) ... in fact I do not know Tirpitz at all.

Are you satisfied now ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:55 pm

That's worse than expected. :shock:
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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