Dunmunro wrote on the "Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung" thread: "That was my rough estimate based upon Rodney's 77% output where 385 = 77% and 500 = 100%. If 339 = 62% then 549 = 100%.
I should have better numbers tomorrow."
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Dunmunro wrote on the "Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung" thread: "That was my rough estimate based upon Rodney's 77% output where 385 = 77% and 500 = 100%. If 339 = 62% then 549 = 100%.
I should have better numbers tomorrow."
waiting for your analysis of the GAR, where the 62% comes from then ?
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Dunmunro:
Hi Duncan, I really like your approach and I do hope you can get to a conclusion, especially for the first minutes of the battle: I was wondering how you would have started this work not having many exact timings in the GAR......
I have some doubts however that it will be possible to determine exactly the total number of salvos fired by KGV. For sure, looking at your preliminary spreadsheet, to the battle map posted by Antonio, and reading the GAR, I see that Y turret was not bearing for at least 15 minutes (from 8:48 to 8:53 reading the GAR, from 9:15 to 9:18 and from 10:02 to 10:06 due to turns), it was out of action for 7 minutes (after 9:34, why have you assumed until 9:38 ?), and that fire was interrupted from 10:09 to 10:18.
The total battle time was 94 minutes (8:48 to 10:22), therefore, even without the last mentioned 10 minutes, we have 84 minutes fire. We also know that gun no.4 of Y turret fired 49 shots and even assuming (very improbable situation) that it NEVER missed a single shot (100% output) we should assume that the salvos were at least 49 + 15(Y not bearing) +7 (Y out of action), assuming almost 1 salvo per minute rate of fire, that is an impressive more than 70 salvos in total (not all of them complete, of course, due to some turrets not bearing).
Am I missing something in this reasoning ?
One more question: I would assume also turret B was blinded while turning at 9:54 as well as turret A , am I wrong ?
Dunmunro wrote: "Y turret was wooded until 0900 according to page 140. KGV turned "...to open A arcs at 0859.""
you wrote: "If KGV's maximum possible output was ~550 rounds, this would imply about 120 salvos"
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Dunmunro wrote: "Y turret was wooded until 0900 according to page 140. KGV turned "...to open A arcs at 0859.""
I just saw it, however at page 144 the GAR, Gunnery - 14" Control, point 2 ends at 8:53 and point 3 states that "a turn to starboard opened "A" arcs and "Y" turret joined in". Then it accounts for salvos from 8:53 till 9:13. Difficult to understand which is the right timing.....you wrote: "If KGV's maximum possible output was ~550 rounds, this would imply about 120 salvos"
Where are you getting the 550 as maximum output ? If Y turret gun no.4 fired 49 shells and was wooded or out of action with the whole turret for 22 minutes (see my previous post), or even for 28 minutes if we use your assumption about Y turret joining action at 8:59, we have at least space for 70 full salvos (or 140 semi-salvos), possibly 75 (150).
Am I making any big mistake here ?........
Dunmunro wrote: "I based ~550 possible (100% output) for KGV on Rodney's 375 rnds fired @ 77% output. Neither ship fired at maximum salvo rate and during turns and periods of poor visibility."
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Dunmunro wrote: "I based ~550 possible (100% output) for KGV on Rodney's 375 rnds fired @ 77% output. Neither ship fired at maximum salvo rate and during turns and periods of poor visibility."
my fault I have not read carefully your previous posts. Thanks for confirming. However the 62% output is still an assumption, isn't it ? I have not found this figure in the actual GAR. The only sure number is 339 actual shots fired.
In any case, we should take into account also that, disregarding the intervals when the 2 ships did not fire at their maximum rate (turns, radar unavailability, etc), the theoretical rate of fire of the 14" Mk VII was much higher than the one of the 16" Mk I (2 rounds per minute vs 1,5 rounds per minute, theoretical of course.....this was one of the reasons why the RN considered that 12 or even just 10 14" guns could have a broadside weight per minute equivalent or superior to the 9 16").
Therefore, if we want to use the Rodney as reference, I guess we have to multiply the 550 by 1,33 to get a more reliable figure (731 ordered to fire), and in absence of a sure 62% output reference, this would mean a total output for KGV on May 27 of around 46%.
BTW, this 733 match exactly with my previous hypothesis that, if gun no.4 in Y turret fired 49 shells, it was not firing (because wooded or out of order) for 28 minutes, then the theoretical salvos number for KGV is something between 70 and 75 full salvos.....)
What do you think ? You are the expert here, and I can be making a big mistake, of course......
Dunmunro wrote:" Theoretically Rodney could have fired at 3 salvos per minute but she only did that twice during the entire engagement and her overall salvo rate was about 1.3 salvos per minute. Output is based upon rounds fired divided into rounds "requested" not the number of rounds that the ship could fire at it's maximum rate of fire."
Alberto Virtuani wrote:
As you say, Rodney salvo rate was 1,3 salvos per minute. KGV was probably able to fire 1 salvo per minute, as PoW actually did on May 24, until her turn..... As you see the ratio is 1,33 difference between the 2 ships, exactly as the theoretical RoF would suggest.
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