KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Can I just ask if- PoW's gun A1 was disabled by its first shot in the morning, and it was able to fire in the evening, was it therefore "a working gun" ignoring the reload time of several hours? :lol:

The definition of a "non-working gun" is a gun which is unable to fire when you might reasonably want it to, or which you suspect will not work when you want it to. If a gun will not fire because its next shell has not made it into the barrel even though it was supposed to have been installed with propellant and the breech locked 30 seconds ago, it is a non-working gun. Leach may have considered quite a few of his guns were "non-working".

Since guns in all three of PoW's turrets missed ordered shots when the time between requested shots for any individual gun were in the region of a minute, and when those weapons were supposed to be loaded and ready to fire in only 30 seconds, Mr McMullen's opinion that everything was "fine" is, shall we say, a little optimistic. :D Surprisingly, since virtually every other British officer has been accused of lying and/or covering up his or his department's deficiencies, Colin McMullen's statement is apparently sacrosanct.

Since the time of flight, plus a few seconds for spotting corrections is applied, is the standard interval between salvoes and the former came down rapidly during the engagement, there is, astonishingly, considering McMullen's assurance, no improvement detectable in PoW's rate of firing. Only at one point only, the 06:00 minute, does one group of her guns get the reload and ready time down to about 45 seconds. Taking half as long again as it is supposed to, and resulting in guns in the group missing the salvo, because they are not ready, like the others.

This brief (single salvo) peak of British firing, strangely enough, is not matched at the same time by the Bismarck, which supposedly puts off her maximum effort, which is recorded but not time-stamped on film, until both she and her target are carrying out maximum rate turns. As a result of which her fire control predictions are rendered completely worthless, and accurate spotting is made more difficult by PoW's smoke screen and her own heeling and turning. A fine time to blaze away at maximum rate, if wasting ammunition were your goal.

This anomaly is because there is no actual record of Bismarck's firing in this action, as there is for PoW, and an imagined gunnery record has been substituted. Lutjens sent his total shells expended figure to Head Office for logistic purposes, and the other parameter comes from a bitter and disappointed Baron, who had been fished out of the sea after seeing his beloved super ship battered to shreds without causing any harm to her tormentors, and thousands of crewmates killed. He stated it had only cost forty shells to sink the Mighty Hood. His statement is apparently sacrosanct. Some British observers estimated the number of salvoes necessary to sink Hood, but since they are all liars we can safely discount their estimates.

All the other gunnery performance details for Bismarck included in this thread and others, are estimates or guesses and even those who put them forward admit the "two salvoes per minute, every minute" regularity, is contradicted by the film. Their illogical response is to say the only alternative is for Bismarck to have shot at her maximum rate all the time. Clearly an exaggeration for effect. Clearly Bismarck's rate varied widely over time. Angle of entry aboard PoW shows Bismarck and PG were firing and hitting as PoW turned away. Geoffrey Brooke records one "splosh" and two salvoes he didn't even see land after PoW put the enemy astern. Long before 06:09. Averaging rate of fire over 14 minutes is only done to make Bismarck's figure look artificially bad and similar to PoW's.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

a long post that basically is just confirming what I stated two pages backwards on this thread :
The problem was into the perception of the guns reliability that was different between Colin McMullen ( the Gunnery Officer ) and his Captain Leach, ... and for me in there we can find the reason of what happened rather than counting the single gun number availability on a defined moment.
Captain Leach on his report described quite well this concept.
In fact while Colin McMullen was declaring :
" Go down and tell the Captain everything is going fine ! "
We have Captain J.C. Leach writing on his final report on June 4th, 1941 at point number 3 :
3. Some explanation remains to be made as to my decision to break off the engagement after the sinking of H.M.S. "Hood" - a decision which clearly invites most critical examination.

Prior to the disaster to the "Hood" I felt confident that together we could deal adequately with "Bismarck" and her consort.

The sinking of "Hood" obviously changed the immediate situation, and there were three further considerations requiring to be weighed up, of which the first two had been in my mind before action was joined.


Namely:

(a). The practical certainty that owing to mechanical "teething troubles" a full output from the main armament was not to be expected.

(b). The working up of the Ship after commissioning had only just reached a stage where I felt able to report to the Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet, that I considered her reasonably fit to take part in service operations. This was the first occasion on which she had done so. From the gunnery point of view the personnel was (sic) immensely keen and well drilled, but inexperienced.

(c). The likelihood of a decisive concentration being effected at a later stage.

In all circumstances I did not consider it sound tactics to continue single handed the engagement with the two German ships, both of whom might be expected to be at the peak of their efficiency.

Accordingly I turned away and broke off the action pending a more favorable opportunity.
From here :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... #P391Leach

It is enough to compare McMullen opinion with Capt Leach opinion about the same situation to realize what really happened and the truth.

There is no need of any hypothesis or speculation, ... it is enough to read and mostly, ... understand what they stated.

McMullen knew about the guns status and problems and for him everything was working fine, ... just as expected.

On the other hand Capt Leach knew the guns reliability overall situation ( I suggest the ones that ignore Capt Leach previous job to check it on his biography book and they will understand more about this guns/turrets problem ) and on his mind he felt he was going to be in trouble quite soon because of the first two points a and b he described above on his final report.

No need for any hypothesis, speculations or inventions.

With Hood Capt Leach felt they can deal the enemy, without Hood he felt the situation was too dangerous for his warship ( ref. above statements ).

McMullen felt no difference between the guns reliability status during the action and he became " furious " to his Captain turning away and sent down the guy to tell him that everything was fine with the guns.

It is enough to read the reports and listen to the interview.

In order to take out from potential troubles Capt Leach, it was Adm Tovey to define a very different and much less critical situation for him, moving in the Y turret jamming event and consequently for sure there were 4 guns less to be taken in consideration and adding 13 more battle minutes to be counted with PoW having fought on alone against the enemy ... :shock: , ... on his July 1941 dispatches at point 19, ... and only in this way Capt Leach conduct while in action was accepted by the Admiralty on September 1941 ( ref. Sir Barnes letter ).

This is what happened and we can read it on the official documents.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,
With Hood Capt Leach felt they can deal the enemy, without Hood he felt the situation was too dangerous for his warship
I thought you said it was because he was a coward.
No need for any hypothesis, speculations or inventions.
You have been fabricating them since 2013.
In order to take out from potential troubles Capt Leach, it was Adm Tovey to define a very different and much less critical situation for him
No, you said it was because he was a liar.

Have you at last realised your hypothetical timetables are worthless, your speculative Bismarck gunnery log unrealistic, your invented maps inaccurate and your assertions of cowardice and conspiracy baseless?


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
discarding his last post provocations, we don't need to answer in detail to Mr.Wadinga penultimate post (blah-blah), as he seems unable to understand "elmentary school calculations", still repeating that a reload time of 45 secs was poor, when it allowed a very good RoF to PoW compared to Bismarck and a much better one than the KGV's (and Rodney's) one on May 27.... :lol:
He seems even ready to question the number of 93 expended shells, communicated officially by Lutjens to Berlin, in his desperate denial attempt.... :negative:

As he mentions A1 gun of PoW, I would just ask him whether he is aware that a gun in B turret of PG was out of action after its 6 th salvo for the whole engagement or not.... :?:
Of course (unfortunately for him) the posted calculations about RoF and effetive # of shells delivered per minute take well into account these similar problems for both ships (PoW and PG), while his theoretical "reload time" is irrelevant in these calculations (that are based on McMullen's used methodology in the PoW GAR) :lol:

The FACTS about PoW gunnery are here and they are incontrovertible ones (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... =90#p79686) as well as the unchallenged battlemaps and timelines proposed by Antonio, in the absence of a credible alternative.
The average FIGURES are these and they are (as well) incontrovertible (Mr.Wadinga alternative figure to 108, for the ordered shots, is still "missing" after the 96 of his fellow denier has been demonstrated as worsening Bismarck figures in terms of RoF):

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg (70.88 KiB) Viewed 1388 times



Antonio Bonomi wrote: "No need for any hypothesis, speculations or inventions. With Hood Capt Leach felt they can deal the enemy, without Hood he felt the situation was too dangerous for his warship.... "
Hi Antonio,
perfect summary (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 120#p79706 ), pointing out the true reasons why Leach broke off the engagement from his own words ! :clap:
They had NOTHING to do at all with the actual guns performances (as confirmed by McMullen message sent to him through a ...boy..), but ONLY with his mind's "considerations" (I would say "fears" in this case).

I have to recognize that Leach was honest enough in his final report. He omitted some timings/details, but he did not insert clearly false statements (as done by many other officers, e.g. Tovey, Wake-Walker, Ellis, Johnston, Pinchin). He even corrected his "wrong" initial declarations/reports of 3 or 5 guns left in action, recognizing that PoW had 9 guns out of 10 available for the fight when he decided to disengage....


However, Tovey apparently felt that such an "sincere" explanation was insufficient to justify a battleship retreat in front of the enemy and added 2 blatantly FALSE statement to his point 19 in the despatches: 06:13 retreat decision (adding 10+ minutes heroic resistance) and "Y" turret jamming before the same decision (thus radically worsening the PoW tactical situation).



Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 8 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Byron Angel
Senior Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Byron Angel »

HMSVF wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:02 pm Byron,

Have a cup of char. All will seem better! :D

Best wishes

HMSVF

HMSVF,
Thanks very much for the cheerful sentiment, but I see no remaining possibility of any reasoned discourse with these two gentlemen from Italy. What started as a laudable effort on their part to dispassionately dissect Denmark Strait has evolved into a pseudo-intellectual opera bouffe.

Sorry about the harsh tone.

That said, a cup of "char" does sound appealing this morning.

B
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I am really sorry for you " hooligan/deniers " at any cost refusing to open your eyes and see the truth as it shows into interviews and official documents properly correlated one to the other in an easy and logic sequence.

I know that after 75 years of the Sir Kennedy perfect novel PURSUIT, ... the many TV documentaries repeating on and on the same story invented by Adm Tovey with his dispatches, ... and later written by Sir Ludovic Kennedy, … it is very hard for you to digest those revelations.

Now the official documents and the interviews are there on line available on your own archives.

You are with your shoulders against a wall, … cornered, ... no more room for the 06:13 PoW disengagement and the Y turret jamming before the retreat that you can read on PURSUIT, ... no more room for the around 15 sea miles for Norfolk and Suffolk.

Sorry for you, ... the truth was a lot different, ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga »

Hello Byron,

Since so much of this and other threads is full of "made-up" information, here is something of interest.

Char's origin is clearly and definitely the origin place of tea, which is China. In Chinese, the pronunciation of the Chinese character for tea, 茶,is "cha"

A calming cup of tea is an excellent idea...it is a measure of the frustration that sensible posters are driven to by the mindless, pointless, evidence-free jihad being waged, that even the calmest and most reasonable are driven to scatological analogy to describe its output.


And Hello Alberto,
He seems even ready to question the number of 93 expended shells, communicated officially by Lutjens to Berlin,
I have not the slightest reason to question this figure " Lutjens sent his total shells expended figure to Head Office for logistic purposes, " I am sure he was most meticulous. He was not trying to sell a fantasy.


Equally, I am well aware that " whether he is aware that a gun in B turret of PG was out of action after its 6 th salvo for the whole engagement or not." but it is of no significance. Any mechanical system has breakdowns and we know how good the PG output was at its maximum from a real report of her rate of fire rather than the imaginary one created for Bismarck.


The failure of McMullen's methodology to highlight how really bad his guns were, based, as it is, on an artificially slow rate of fire of around one round per gun per minute, giving an answer of only 25% down was quickly realised in the analysis carried out by others when the reports were perused.


If his guns had each only been required to fire once every hour, I'm sure the figure wouuld have been much, much better, but still not perfect since A1 took several hours to reload.

Averages are worthless in this instance, do you wear the same clothes every day even through snow and a heat wave? Admiral Santarini can explain about more valuable statistical analysis.

Whilst looking at Santarini's book I can find no mention of him seeing the film of variable firing rates for Bismarck, including extremely rapid firing. He adopts Antonio's metronomic schedule, and indeed we find he lists Antonio's 2005 "Stretto di Danimarca" article as one of his sources. Surely this immense statistical monolith has not been built on Antonio's imaginary timetable, disproved by the film? Please no excuses about frame rates and other techno-twaddle. The film is not running twice as fast as reality, like the Keystone Cops. :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I suggest from my side to you " hooligan/deniers " not to take anything else than this one :

Maalox_Advanced_Acid_Indigestion.jpg
Maalox_Advanced_Acid_Indigestion.jpg (77.44 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

Again, ... after 75 years of novels and lies, ... it is going to be very hard to digest it for you, ... as we can see, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1586
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Herr Nilsson »

wadinga wrote: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:00 pm The film is not running twice as fast as reality, like the Keystone Cops. :lol:
Not twice, but most likely at least 1.33 times as fast.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Byron Angel
Senior Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Byron Angel »

Antonio,
If your "work" is ever actually published and put before the informed public, we'll see who is gobbling the Maalox then.

B
northcape
Senior Member
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:31 am

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by northcape »

Byron,

don't let the two clowns drag you down on their level. At these abysmal depths, they for sure beat you with their experience in silliness, ignorance, and trolling. Even with two-year-old children one can have a more useful conversation. It is just not worth it.
Again, nobody takes them seriously, not by a smallest bit. They have embarrassed and soiled themselves in so many different ways. It is just a pity that their nonsense continues to stain this forum.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,

ignoring the vile provocations coming from degraded people, angry for their embarrassing IMPOTENCE to politely counter arguments,

Wadinga wrote: "I have not the slightest reason to question this figure " Lutjens sent his total shells expended figure to Head Office for logistic purposes, ""
Thanks God ! At least 93 is accepted. I think Mr.Wadinga should now try a figure also for the ordered shells. His fellow denier tried 96 ( :shock: ) and got rubbished, as the resulting Rate of Fire of Bismarck would have been much slower than PoW one. :lol:

Waiting for his proposed theory, 104 to 112 is the most reasonable figure. However this figure DOES NOT AFFECT significantly the "effective # shells per minute" figure that shows how good was PoW gunnery compared to Bismarck, because theis figure is dependant ONLY on the 93 shells effectively fired !

All the other FACTS re poW gunnery (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... =90#p79686) are incontrovertible and Mr.Wadinga seems to be unable to understand that, if he insists to say that the film shows a faster RoF, the consequence is that Bismarck fired very slowly before Leach decision to disengage (or she fired quickly even before but lost so much output that everybody would have noticed it): his choice. But please stop denying mathematics and statistics....try to propose an alternative theory if you don't like the "metronomic approach" (but please respect known evidences like 93 shells, 11 salvos visible in the photos/film after 6:03, German ranging methodology, etc.)..... :negative:


Wadinga wrote: "Whilst looking at Santarini's book.....we find he lists Antonio's 2005 "Stretto di Danimarca" article as one of his sources"
As well as any sane person should do, when writing about this battle, as Antonio's work of 2005 (albeit superseded by his more recent work with new evidences/researches/refinements) is still the best published one, waiting for something better.



Now the most ridiculous statement of this guy unable to do "elementary school calculations":
"The failure of McMullen's methodology to highlight how really bad his guns were, based, as it is, on an artificially slow rate of fire of around one round per gun per minute"
This is the demonstration this guy cannot distinguish between cause and effect (or between hypothesis and thesis).

Mc Mullen (http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm) took well known data (duration of fire action, shells expended, ordered shots) and derived the salvos per minute (RoF) and the key effective salvos per minute (effective RoF). There is NO "artificially slow RoF" as the RoF is the result of a simple arithmetic calculation and this is a FACT, not an opinion. :kaput:
Now, is it more clear to this genius how the spreadsheet is built ? It's not difficult, and I do hope that someone (among the deniers) can help him understanding it (while he gets some Maalox to avoid severe problems....). In the meantime these are the average figures calculated using a British methodology, the one used by McMullen himself in his GAR.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg (70.88 KiB) Viewed 1303 times


Herr Nilsson wrote: "Not twice, but most likely at least 1.33 times as fast."
Hi Marc, thanks for confirming what I already suspected years ago, speaking about the "absolute" speed of this 8mm film (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... eed#p69328). :clap:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Bill Jurens
Moderator
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:21 am
Location: USA

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Bill Jurens »

It is often quite difficult to establish the "frame rate" used to film during World War II, as cameras varied from country to country typically driven by spring wound mechanisms which were subject to (sometimes considerable) error. The situation is rendered even more complex when conversion from film to television was made, as the display rates for film and TV were often not quite synchronous. Further, especially with 'silent' film, it was possible to control the speed somewhat to make a longer sequence fit into a somewhat smaller time frame, and vice-versa. This is much more easily accomplished with silent film than with sound film, as the ear is more sensitive to differences in pitch than the eye is to speed. Things get even more complicated when conversions are made and material is presented on the internet, where display speeds for downloaded videos are often at the mercy of the microprocessor on one's computer and the inherent frame rate of the display monitor.

The net result of all of this is that it is very risky to attempt to measure timing with any reliability, especially when one is looking at the material via the internet. I have direct experience in this via my investigation of the magazine explosion on USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor. As part of that investigation, I obtained a copy of the actual film, required for a 'frame by frame' analysis, from the National Archives. In that case, because I had actual frames to work from, and knew the nominal frame rate, my timing was probably as accurate as it could possibly be. For convenience, I often viewed the same film sequence on the Internet and saw that not only was the timing often different from the film, it often varied from viewing to viewing.

So, basically, barring an actual examination of the raw film itself, any attempts to determine precise and accurate firing rates of Bismarck via examination of depictions on the Internet or via television programs is pretty much futile. Upon that, one can superimpose the fact that firing intervals in real life were often anything but constant, even when constancy was the goal, so that an extrapolation of other firing intervals from a few filmed examples is pretty much meaningless.

Attempts to reconstruct the track chart(s) at Denmark Strait via an examination of the films shot from Prinz Eugen actually represent, at best, little more than educated guesswork.

Bill Jurens
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:32 pm Hello everybody,

ignoring the vile provocations coming from degraded people, angry for their embarrassing IMPOTENCE to politely counter arguments,

Wadinga wrote: "I have not the slightest reason to question this figure " Lutjens sent his total shells expended figure to Head Office for logistic purposes, ""
Thanks God ! At least 93 is accepted. I think Mr.Wadinga should now try a figure also for the ordered shells. His fellow denier tried 96 ( :shock: ) and got rubbished, as the resulting Rate of Fire of Bismarck would have been much slower than PoW one. :lol:

We don't know how many rounds Bismarck requested but there is no grounds whatsoever to pick 108.

There is also no grounds for supposing that Bismark's RoF was constant from open fire to ceasefire. Again, if Bismarck was firing at a constant rate then she only fired ~10 rounds to score 3 x 38cm hits on PoW (if we use 0600:30 to 0602.00* as the timing for first to last salvos that scored hits if Hood blew up at 0600). We know that the 38cm hits occurred when the geometry of PoW and Bismarck placed Bismarck forward of PoW's starboard side.

*Clearly this timing is wrong as PoW's salvo chart shows evidence for 38cm hits from ~0558 which also allows for a sufficient number of salvos for statistical probability.
northcape
Senior Member
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:31 am

Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by northcape »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:32 pm Hello everybody,

ignoring the vile provocations coming from degraded people, angry for their embarrassing IMPOTENCE to politely counter arguments,
These things (e.g. the presented fire rates, the battle map, letters and phone calls, etc.) are not arguments, or they don't provide any base for any argument. These are a juxtaposition of random bits of irrelevant information, presented out of context and without any understanding of the raw data, and subsequently wrongly interpreted almost every time.

As such, they don't need to be countered, neither politely or impolitely.
Post Reply