KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:29 am

Hello ever ybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

I completely agree with your above post.

In order to explain what happened with simple words we used Adm Tovey description, of course the failure had his own process inside the turret loading mechanisms.

That is just a detail and we do not have to focus on the failure details, ... but on the irrefutable fact that it happened AFTER the order by Capt Leach and NOT BEFORE it, ... and in that there is the irrefutable evidence of the intentional lies written by Adm Tovey and repeated after for 75 years by many book authors.

You are right as well regarding the PG photo and film timing, ... being that a work I did precisely many years ago and no one can refute, ... having a base PG knowledge, ... but here we are asking too much to those ignorant deniers, ... Intentionally refuting to use base geometry for the Norfolk known bearings, ... and accept the results, ... how can we pretend to have them admitting a reality like this one, ... they will never do it.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by paul.mercer » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:43 am

dunmunro wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:22 pm
Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:53 pm
Hello everybody,

well, ... we have just learned that the KG V class battleships have never been really completed, ... not having had in their service life the quadruple turrets and relative gun loading mechanisms working at an acceptable reliability level, ... :shock:

Neither KGV nor PoW had a chance to do large scale firing trials and after the experience gained in action against Bismarck KGV and PoW had extensive modifications to their turret loading systems immediately after returning to the UK.
Gentlemen,
Once again thanks for your answers, I'm afraid I must have got the wrong impression about PoW's turret not jamming.
Re the modifications to PoW's loading system, I believe that other KGV's also had problems later on, so was this problem ever satisfactorily resolved?

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by pgollin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Basically yes (the KGV for instance had a good output against Bismarck) - but like ALL other WW2 heavy gun systems they could have problems.

I would write with more detail, but the conspiracy nuts would merely take things out of context. There is plenty of info out there (mostly dismissed by the conspiracy nuts as variations on "lies").

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:38 pm

pgollin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:19 pm
Basically yes (the KGV for instance had a good output against Bismarck) - but like ALL other WW2 heavy gun systems they could have problems.
KGV had both quad turrets jammed at the same time during the final battle for a period of 7 minutes.

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Hello All,

That is just a detail and we do not have to focus on the failure details
I can understand why you would want to defocus on all the failure details, preferably bury them somewhere. :cool:


What we do have to focus on is that a phrase like:
and pretended the Vickers Armstrong technicians on board even after
Has still not been explained. Are A & A alleging that the uninformed comment "the guns are OK" is more significant than that, as we have established several times before, dockyard personnel and armament specialists were still installing PoW's weapons systems and fixing bugs even when she got to Scapa. The invaluable contribution these civilians made to keeping PoW's guns firing at all, at Denmark Straits albeit at a very slow rate has been recorded many times.


Is the "pretended" supposed to mean the technicians did not actually exist, or is it supposed to mean there was nothing wrong with PoW's guns and Leach pretended he needed these men who could have returned home, and not ended up in a sea battle. This muddled innuendo is typical of the fuzzy minded thinking the Ziggurat is built on. The post action specialist report details all the many physical problems with the mounts as well as lack of crew experience.

Late-war performance
As any possessor of V Tarrant's KG V class battleships knows, by the end of the war KG V herself was bombarding Japanese shore facilities firing 267 14 inch shells on 17th July 1945 and 265 in 37 minutes on 29th July. The rate of fire of less than one round per gun per minute is less than impressive, but when nobody is firing back- what's the rush? Not the same as when you are trying to kill Bismarck before she kills you. It is still an impressive weight of ordnance fired from what had been the "Main Ornament" as the AA crews had disparaging called the big guns.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Hello everybody,

anyone can judge Mr.Wadinga (and his best insulting hooligan, whose insinuations are just stupid crap) attitude to mud waters and change argument when left without any way to deny the timing of the photo NH69731 and of the PG film, being obliged to quibble over the meaning of "to pretend" in English vs. the Italian verb "pretendere" or over the jamming of the turret vs the jamming of the revolving ring.... :negative:

Of course the clear judgement of McMullen that everything was fine from gunnery viewpoint (inconvenient as it can be for a denier at any cost) and the merciless statistical comparison between PoW and Bismarck performances (extremely annoying for the same people) is MUCH MORE relevant than the detailed description of all the problems happened in the turrets (technically interesting for competent people only).


The only sentence worth of comment in the above post is:
Wadinga wrote: "KG V herself was bombarding Japanese shore facilities firing 267 14 inch shells on 17th July 1945 and 265 in 37 minutes on 29th July. The rate of fire of less than one round per gun per minute is less than impressive, but when nobody is firing back- what's the rush?"
Correct, but a slow RoF hugely helps output efficiency, as there is all the time to act calmly and to load all guns between one salvo and the other, to turn smoothly the ship or even to cease fire while turning...Therefore the "performances" when firing against shore targets are not really comparable, as Mr.Wadinga correctly recognizes.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:57 pm

Hello Alberto,
merciless statistical comparison between PoW and Bismarck performances (extremely annoying

I think you mean laughable distortion of statistical comparison, although you are correct in that endless reposting of your grossly flawed Tedious Table is indeed annoying. As somebody else has pointed a vaguely competent handling of Excel does not mean you understand statistics. You are apparently incapable of understanding the very basics. Whilst we have a one second sampling period for the variable called "PoW's Output" and your table even removes the hiatus period when she temporarily stopped firing, you fail to understand that the sampling period for Bismarck is 840 times larger, and even that is based on your unsupported guess as to when she actually stopped shooting. You have derived an irrelevant average from within this gross sample and attempted to pretend it represents a valid value for the variable "Bismarck's Output".


On another thread you have created another tabular pretence, outlining Bismarck's shooting at Hood in impressive detail with salvo times to the nearest second. You call it a reconstruction but I think it fairer to call it a complete invention. Like the works of George R R Martin who has invented a huge and complicated history of warring empires, Kings and Queens and Dragons and the timelines to define their complex spatial and temporal interrelation, all of which is completely imaginary, so is this latest Excel excrescence. You have sprinkled terms like "speculation", "pure assumptions" and "most probable".

It starts with the first unwarranted assumption, namely that the bitter and soggy Baron's taunt that Hood's destruction had cost only "40 shells", was true, and then fabricates a salvo sequence and invented timings for them to fit this assumption whilst acknowledging there is no photographic evidence to support them. There is certainly no documentary evidence. A few missed shots are arbitrarily assigned, based on no evidence at all, using breakdowns the Prinz Eugen had, but all we know is the Baron said Schneider called a single misfire.


Contrary to the previous assertion that Bismarck never exceeded one round per gun per minute, invented to "prove" she could not fire faster than the ailing PoW, in this table A + B turrets fire salvo 2 46 seconds after salvo 1. They fire salvo 4 30 seconds after salvo 2. They fire salvo 6 an astonishing 73 seconds after salvo 4. This is after the order "Good Rapid" has been given and the time of flight has reduced from 35.9 secs to 27. Salvo 8 is fired co-incidentally 73 seconds after salvo 6.

C + D turrets have intervals of 61, 51, 73 (again), 69 seconds. This last salvo was apparently worth waiting for since it destroyed Hood.

Supposedly, despite ordering good rapid after achieving a straddle on salvo 3 and hits afterwards, in this invented salvo chart Bismarck's slows down by half, once she has a good fire control solution. However revelations of the downright fantasy in this latest sojourn into incompetent mathematics belongs in the correct thread.


Antonio's refusal to explain what he meant is clearly because he has no evidence, just intuition. This is a straightforward question, are the workers imaginary and their presence a lie, dreamed up afterwards, or does he think because Leach signed for the ship or told Tovey he was ready, the guns were OK and the civilian workers were aboard under false pretences?

He also refuses to explain how Aylwin achieved the utterly impossible, and once you have eliminated the impossible..................

All the best

wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:34 pm

Hello everybody,
Q.E.D.
Mr Wadinga is UNABLE to post his own version of the very annoying table that shows the only possible comparison between Bismarck and PoW shooting in terms of RoF, built using the RN methodology adopted by McMullen....
However the 93 shells (vs 55) are a FACT that he cannot deny in any way, while the 14 minutes (vs 8,5) are the only reasonable timing, and the result is the table, that confirms McMullen judgement that everything was going fine from gunnery viewpoint.
He will be my guest playing with it and changing the "assumptions", like the # of ordered shots (if he is able to understand the concept but unfortunately apparently he is not..... :kaput: ).

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg (70.88 KiB) Viewed 679 times

Mr.Wadinga is free to add (as per Mr.Dunmunro theory) or detract (speculating that Bismarck ceased fire before 6:09 despite the last photo... :lol: ) seconds to Bismarck firing (to make us laugh once again), obtaining in substance the same merciless result for the deniers: PoW fired at least well as Bismarck in terms of RoF and effective # of shells delivered, as clear form McMullen message to his Captain and already published by Adm.Santarini, who explained also WHY British are "reluctant" to recognize PoW performance. :stop:



Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:39 pm

Helo everybody,

as well as per above post, Mr.Wadinga is UNABLE to propose his own salvo chart for Bismarck (I have done one, Antonio has done his one, Mr.Wadinga prefers to think that the "fog of war" prevents any reconstruction). Instead of uselessly pointing out my pretended errors, he could try to work out his own version (to make us laugh :lol: ).

Bismarck_Hood_Salvos.jpg
Bismarck_Hood_Salvos.jpg (64.47 KiB) Viewed 679 times

The assumption of my salvo chart is that the only rapid salvos were fired during the Gabelgruppe ranging sequence, then that the firing was done after spotting the fall of shells. Also I have assumed A+B and C+D were fired separately. I have also another version (changing nothing to overall timings) with A+B and C+D fired in rapid sequence, with a slightly longer pause after the 2 groups.
If Mr.Wadinga has another explanation why it took 5 minutes to sink Hood ordering more (or less) than 40 shots (coping with all witness accounts), please he is welcome to show us all his complete salvo chart for Bismarck (from 5:55 till 6:09, as my one and Antonio's one).....but he will never be able to do so, because firing fast during Hood engagement will make simply IMPOSSIBLE to fire fast also during the film and/or against PoW because 93 is an undeniable FACT and he is unable to support any different reconstruction of the battle... :lol: :lol: :lol:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

I think that you are just wasting your time with such a group of incompetent ignorant persons like to " hooligan/deniers " are

We waited months for an easy geometrical confirmation never to get any agreement, ... no geometry and no mathematics.

When cornered with evidence, ... they just change subject in any way they can, ... and refute the admission of being wrong.

How long it took them and how many efforts just to agree about 06:13 being false and wrong for the PoW retreat time ?
Months, ... :shock: ... for such an easy to agree confirmation.

Did you get the confirmation they do understand and they do agree on the irrefutable fact that PoW Y turret jammed AFTER the retreat order, ( as per Capt Leach report ) ... so during the turn away ...
It was considered expedient to break off the action and consolidate the position, and the ship, after being manoeuvred round the remains of "Hood", turned away behind a smoke screen. "Y" Turret fired in local during the turn as smoke blanked the after director.

"Y" Turret's shell ring jammed during the turn away and the turret was out of action until 0825.



and NOT BEFORE the order to disengage from the enemy as Adm Tovey falsely declared on his dispatches at point 19 ?
Within a very few minutes she was hit by four 15-in, and three smaller, probably 8-in. shells; her compass platform was damaged and most of the people on it killed or wounded; both forward H.A. Directors and the starboard after one were out of action; one four-gunned turret had jammed and the ship was holed underwater aft.

The Commanding Officer considered it expedient temporarily to break off the action and, at 0613, turned away under smoke.
Never so far, ... just elusive change of subject never to admit this irrefutable shameful event.

This is just an example of the non existing fairness on that side while discussing on this forum, ... it is a pre-conceived side taken approach.

Now how you can think about them to go and read Peter Hodges very good book about the KGV class main turrets design problems and agree about his competent conclusions ?

No way, ... even if that book was written not by you or me, ... but by an expert of that area, ... British and a Royal Navy Artillery Officer ( Retired ).


I think it is enough for everybody to realize how this discussion can proceed, ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:50 pm

Hello Alberto,


I think that you are just wasting your time

Creating these Excel random number generators.

Thank you for posting your meaningless fantasy Bismarck table here why not move it to the correct thread, or preferably the hypothetical thread since it is a completely made-up thing. What would be the point of making up more fantasy listings with random numbers inserted and generated? There is only one corroborated piece of information in either table, Bismarck expended 93 shots. All the other values 14, 840, 27, 108, 1.8751, 1.599, 13.89%, 4, 6.3968, 5117 and 120,2603 are meaningless hypothetical drivel, a pointless waste of time and effort.

All fabricated figures to rendered obsolete by the film. Massaging the figures to try and make Bismarck look bad doesn't work.

Unbelievably you even shoot yourself in the foot by explaining why PoW's shooting was so slow even when she got hits:
but a slow RoF hugely helps output efficiency, as there is all the time to act calmly and to load all guns between one salvo and the other

And PoW's output was still 25% down. :lol: :lol: :lol:



Surely if you can imagine something as complicated as this, you and Antonio can imagine a way in which Aylwin could have achieved what you say he did, without even being able to see the results of his shooting?
Skywalker:
But with the blast shield down, I can't even see! How am I supposed to fight?
Kenobi:
Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them.
Maybe Aylwin had a lucky Rabbit's Foot.
Kenobi:
In my experience, there is no such thing as luck.


Go on, just make some evidence up, like the "handrail being parallel with the horizon". It always is unless you are sinking>

timing of the photo NH69731 and of the PG film,



In what way are these two things related? Only with your idee fixe that one shows the 19th and the other shows the 20 and 21st. Since your guess is wrong because Lagemann says you are wrong, and he was there, these two things are unrelated.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:59 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Thank you for posting your meaningless fantasy Bismarck table here why not move it to the correct thread"
Because Mr.Wadinga spoke first about it in this thread... :negative: and he is UNABLE to counter it and apparently even to understand it.

Wadinga wrote: "PoW's shooting was so slow even when she got hits"
FALSE !" She fired faster than KGV on May 27... :lol:
When did another KGV class ship fired faster than 1,9 salvos per minute (McMullen calculation, not mine) while in action ? :kaput:

Wadinga wrote: "the "handrail being parallel with the horizon". It always is unless you are sinking"
This total ignorance of geometry and basic optic rules is astonishing and would not deserve any answer...
We have the demonstration that this guy is just unable to look at a photo and understand it, but he still insists in his "sacred crusade". :kaput:

Was PG sinking in this photo ? Is the "lower" (bottom) part of this railing (left side) parallel to the horizon ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The "upper" part is parallel, therefore the shells are at almost 90° from it (but not from the "lower" railing). What a shame to see a once clever guy (who pretends to have been at sea...) desperately trying to deny FACTS exposing himself in such a ridiculous way only to save the honor of a couple of timid and hesitant officers.

nh69723.jpg
nh69723.jpg (36.52 KiB) Viewed 636 times

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 19 times in total.
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:21 pm

Hello everybody,

the " hooligan/denier " wrote :
Since your guess is wrong because Lagemann says you are wrong, and he was there, these two things are unrelated.
Showing an incorrect Bundesarchiv captioning of a photo does not correspond to state that " Legemann says .. " ... :negative:

Does the poor incompetent has the photo captioning in original ? NO !

Does this " deniers " has ever been in Bundesarchiv and has personally verified what he is stating ? NO !

So the above statement is not verified so far, ... it will remain incorrect of course, ... but right now is also over stated not having provided here in the backside of that photo in original with the Lagemann personal evaluations he is over stating.

Bundesarchiv is not Lagemann ... :wink:

That folder does contain many good information ... for a competent person, ... having had it on his hands years ago, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:08 pm

Hello Antonio,
for a competent person, ... having had it on his hands years ago,

So what are you hiding? The Bundesarchiv website says it is the original caption, what do you know? If you have another caption why not show it? Have you been relying on nobody else laying their hands on it? If you have, your bluff may be called. Sooner than you think. :D


Still no explanation about what Leach is supposed to have "pretended". Still no information on how Aylwin nearly hit the wrong ship.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by northcape » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:18 pm

wadinga wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:08 pm
Hello Antonio,
for a competent person, ... having had it on his hands years ago,

So what are you hiding?
I don't think that A refers to himself, since he mentions a "competent person". A competent person for sure knows how to (or how not to) interpret historical data like photo captions, which A clearly is not capable of. E.g. he also believes he can use paintings of the battle as evidences for supporting or verifying a theory.
As for the VA workers, that it easy: Leach and Tovey were so careful in pre-planning the cover-up, that they have actually hired some actors in advance to represent the workers.

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