KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

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wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:24 am

Hello Northcape,

You make a very good point. Competent at colour schemes, but he has gone completely overboard since he decided to beat Cernuschi at his game of making up fantasies about Royal Navy conspiracies.


The captions
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund die Breitseite feuernde Bismarck.
Foto: Lagemann, Papenburg
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

Are described as "text that was on or with the picture". I expect the Bundesarchiv is quite meticulous about such matters. Antonio is happy to trust
Seegefecht des Schlachtschiffes "Bismark" unter Island. Schlachtschiff "Bismark" feuert seine erste Voll-Salve auf Hood.
Bildberichter: Lagemann
Because it supports his contention this is the first salvo from Bismarck firing after PG has already started, but any caption which contradicts his fabricated timetable must be wrong. Even if it's the same source.


As a German speaker do you think Bildberichter as opposed to foto credit makes any difference?

For Alberto,
FALSE !" She fired faster than KGV on May 27
Remember the bad weather thing, and the wearing the turrets out by firing them for hours thing and the well we're running of fuel but she stopped firing ages ago because all guns are knocked out so need to bust a gut thing?

Nice repro of NH 69723, but since you simplistically believe one splash can only mean one shot, and that can only mean PoW, since you can't see Bismarck in the NH 69723 frame, that can only mean this isn't Denmark Straits. Same daft logic. Tell me what Lagemann's ORIGINAL caption says. :D

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

northcape
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by northcape » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:37 am

wadinga wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:24 am
Hello Northcape,

You make a very good point. Competent at colour schemes, but he has gone completely overboard since he decided to beat Cernuschi at his game of making up fantasies about Royal Navy conspiracies.


The captions
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund die Breitseite feuernde Bismarck.
Foto: Lagemann, Papenburg
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

Are described as "text that was on or with the picture". I expect the Bundesarchiv is quite meticulous about such matters. Antonio is happy to trust
Seegefecht des Schlachtschiffes "Bismark" unter Island. Schlachtschiff "Bismark" feuert seine erste Voll-Salve auf Hood.
Bildberichter: Lagemann
Because it supports his contention this is the first salvo from Bismarck firing after PG has already started, but any caption which contradicts his fabricated timetable must be wrong. Even if it's the same source.


As a German speaker do you think Bildberichter as opposed to foto credit makes any difference?

For Alberto,
FALSE !" She fired faster than KGV on May 27
Remember the bad weather thing, and the wearing the turrets out by firing them for hours thing and the well we're running of fuel but she stopped firing ages ago because all guns are knocked out so need to bust a gut thing?

Nice repro of NH 69723, but since you simplistically believe one splash can only mean one shot, and that can only mean PoW, since you can't see Bismarck in the NH 69723 frame, that can only mean this isn't Denmark Straits. Same daft logic. Tell me what Lagemann's ORIGINAL caption says. :D

All the best

wadinga
"Bildberichter" is an odd term, which doesn't make a lot of sense (or which isn't very precise). It can mean anything (who has taken the picture, who was at the scene and is using this picture to document his/her narrative, who was providing (e.g. not shooting) the picture).

But again, I would not use ANY foto credit in that context as describing actual events. There are just too many uncertainties.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:49 am

Hello everybody,

the poor incompetent and ignorant " hooligan/deniers " writing above have no clue about what their are talking about.

Never been to Bundesarchiv and never had the proper folder in their hands ... as I did many years ago.

Talking about the proper captioning on the back of a photo showing a print carefully described by the Propaganda Kompanie ( Kriegsberichter ) Joseph Lagemann, ... one can notice into that folder, ... with the original photos, ... carefully preserved, ... the PK ( Kriegsmahler ) Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt photo of the very famous print he made for Adm Raeder to be given as a gift to Adm Lutjens widow.

But please do not explain them that the PK ( Kriegsmahler ) Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt was there too, looking at everything exactly like the Propaganda Kompanie ( Kriegsberichter ) Joseph Lagemann was doing, ... only taking notes and making sketches instead of taking photos, ... but do not tell them to use their brain to try to understand, ... because they simply do not want to do it, ... even if being very limited, that will just provide a small help anyway, ... :wink:

Understand this is way asking too much to those poor persons, ... they are unable to realize the difference between Capt Leach statements and Adm Tovey ones, ... they are unable to understand what Peter Hodges wrote about the KGV class turrets, ... what can we expect from them ?

Why they are totally unable to do the above ? :

It is simple, because they do not want to do it, ... like for the geometry on the Norfolk bearings, ... and still live in their fantasy world of " novels ".

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:40 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "the "handrail being parallel with the horizon". It always is unless you are sinking>....Nice repro of NH 69723"
At least Mr.Wadinga has possibly understood he said a pure nonsense :lol: and now he should admit that NH69731 shows the railings parallel to the horizon, therefore the photo was taken when PG was still on course around 220°.
The timing of the photo is therefore FIXED once forever at 6:03:xx and the shells are from PoW salvo 19, despite any possible caption in the world.

Is he now able to look also at the film himself or does he need another kind ... help...? :wink:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 am

Hello Alberto,

I'll explain what you mean- to you. You obviously don't mean the nonsense of the handrails being parallel to the horizon. They are also parallel to the deck, and if the deck isn't parallel to the horizon you are pitching hard in bad weather or sinking.

What you mean is the handrails, which are assumed to run fore and aft at this point, are roughly orthogonal to the bearing to PoW, from the POV of the photographer.. Since the bearing to PoW is in the region of 150T and you can add 90 degrees to that, PG is steering somewhere around 240T. It's as vague as that with maybe a plus or minus 20 degrees.


The same logic applies to NH 69729 where the photographer records the Bismarck heading directly towards him on a relative bearing orthogonal to the handrail. Bismarck is still firing on her port beam, so PG's stern points directly towards Bismarck's target, and therefore PG steers about 330T. Since Bismarck is still shooting, it is long before 06:14 when this manoeuvre, a 90 degree turn to starboard, is actually portrayed on the Gefechtskizze, because Brinkmann distorted his track to minimise this depiction of his over-reaction to the imaginary torpedo attack. Only by this radical manoeuvre would Brinkmann comb any torpedo tracks, but there is no indication Bismarck ever carried out any similar radical torpedo avoidance because he never warned them. The Baron does not mention such a warning or turns either during the shooting or afterwards at 06:14 because they never happened. Senior German officers deduced the inaccuracy of PG's recorded track, and described the submitted plan as "useless and worthless".


A further radical turn to port brings PG up on Bismarck's starboard side, with the latter fouling the range to PoW, because PG has lost her lead over the flagship. No wonder the frustrated gunners aboard PG thought they were on a "flying bedstead". Mullenheim-Rechberg and Schmalenbach ignored the Gefechtskizze track of PG, because they knew it was "useless and worthless". They have maybe been a little over-kind to Brinkmann's memory in minimizing his extreme over-reaction to a warning from an untried and unreliable GHG hydrophone system.


The enemy PoW saw turning away so radically through the smoke and splashes, was probably the Prinz.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 am

Hello everybody,

therefore, after (explaining what was clear to everybody already and after) admitting I was right and he was wrong with the railings and the timing of NH69731 being taken at around 6:03:20, with PG still on course around 220° (bearing to PoW is even less than 140°, not 150° at 6:03, being 144° at 6:02 and due to PoW hard turn away) and showing the salvo 19 of PoW, now Mr.Wadinga jumps on NH69729, in order to avoid to acknowledge the timing of the previously discussed photo...... :negative:

Fine, as we all know he will never admit anything in principle. Anyone can judge who is right with NH69731. The same for the film timing being surely taken after 6:03:30, as PG is turning starting 6:03:40, as clear from the movement back of her railings in order to keep Bismarck at the center of the camera......


Re.NH69729, it fits the position of PG and Bismarck just around 6:08 in Antonio reconstruction, but this photo has NOTHING to do with the previous one and is almost irrelevant discussing the turn of PG at 6:03 and of BS at 6:04, that are the key events to draw a battlemap.....
In case Mr.Wadinga wants to discuss the other photos and to refine the reconstruction timings, he can present his own theory, as Antonio has done already.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:45 am

Hello Alberto,

Try and keep up will you. We finished with NH69731 ages ago. If the splashes are salvo 19 then that time is about right. Provided all the British logging is not falsified as there is no useful German logging.


This photograph has nothing to do with the film which was shot some minutes before Hood was destroyed as witness Lagemann says the shells landing in it are from Hood. NH69729 shows Bismarck never avoided imaginary torpedoes, and was in a position to fire forward and aft turret groups at PoW when Prinz Eugen was travelling at right angles to her course.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:27 pm

Hello everybody,

in order to counter the above statement it was enough to interview some battle eyewitnesses before they died, ... :wink:

But our " hooligan/deniers " never spent their time doing it, ... so here we are with them uselessly and desperately hanging on an incorrect caption, ... just like R. Winklareth was hanging on some light effects on some photos, ... or on the clouds, ... or whatever else one can try to hang on to.

Interviewing battle eyewitnesses on key positions one can remove all those potential doubts left about some photos and events, ... and qualify them and almost obtain a kind of a photo or event certification, ... especially if correlated with their memories written at the time of the action, ... :wink:

Interview_London_gross.jpg
Interview_London_gross.jpg (47.9 KiB) Viewed 1913 times

http://www.svgwassersport.de/seite/news ... verstorben

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Schlenzka

https://www.heimatzeitung.de/lokales/be ... tstag.html

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/debriefing3.html

But to do that you must have been traveling and visit them, ... interview them ,... spent a couple of days with them and explain what you were looking for and have their help on understand what they remember and mostly they can still provide or show you.

Enough said, ... the rest will be published for you to know, ... in few years.

Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:31 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "the film which was shot some minutes before Hood was destroyed"
Mr Wadinga needs help to understand the film.
In the first seconds of the film there is a clear turn of PG, well visible looking at the railings of PG starboard side that move aft when the camera is kept fixed to Bismarck. This means that PG was turning starboard at that time.

What time PG truned to starboard ? ONLY at 06:03:40 and at 06:06:30 as per her battlemap http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... tlemap.gif.

Therefore the shells are from PoW salvo 20 and 21, as evident from the fact that they are the only ones falling around Bismarck, and not the hitting (well grouped) semi-salvos fired by PoW to Bismarck (+ the ones fired by Hood to PG) at 5:59, before Hood explosion. :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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