What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
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What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello,
Does anyone know which ship reported the first to London on the destruction of Hood , and who was the first in London to know about it ... ? What did they do when they found out ...?
Does anyone know which ship reported the first to London on the destruction of Hood , and who was the first in London to know about it ... ? What did they do when they found out ...?
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
the first message was sent by HMS Norfolk, ... from RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker the F.O. ( Flag Officer ) of the 1st C.S. ( First Cruiser Squadron - CS1 ) at 06:15.
You can find it on the thread :
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799&p=68175#p68175
on the document ADM 199-2227 posted by Dunmunro on February 28, 2016 at 10:41 on page 10.
Referencing the 3 raws of documents provided, ... it is the first message on the first document on the left on the second raw.
It was obviously received in the War Room of the Royal Navy Admiralty in London, where several Officers were carefully following the events ....
What did they do ?
After having received other information about the evolution of the overall situation scenario ... like to PoW retreat from the battle and her damage status, ... they asked RearAdm Wake-Walker about his intention to re-engage the enemy ...
We know how it went ... after.
Bye Antonio
@ Alecsandros,
the first message was sent by HMS Norfolk, ... from RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker the F.O. ( Flag Officer ) of the 1st C.S. ( First Cruiser Squadron - CS1 ) at 06:15.
You can find it on the thread :
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799&p=68175#p68175
on the document ADM 199-2227 posted by Dunmunro on February 28, 2016 at 10:41 on page 10.
Referencing the 3 raws of documents provided, ... it is the first message on the first document on the left on the second raw.
It was obviously received in the War Room of the Royal Navy Admiralty in London, where several Officers were carefully following the events ....
What did they do ?
After having received other information about the evolution of the overall situation scenario ... like to PoW retreat from the battle and her damage status, ... they asked RearAdm Wake-Walker about his intention to re-engage the enemy ...
We know how it went ... after.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Many thanks Antonio,
From http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Hood_p2.htm we see that:
"The Admiralty announced the loss of Hood at 9 P.M. on the 24th of May in the form of the following simple communiqué:
"British naval forces intercepted early this morning off the coast of Greenland German naval forces including the battleship Bismarck. The enemy were attacked, and during the ensuing action H.M.S. Hood (Captain R. Kerr, C.B.E., R.N.) wearing the flag of Vice-Admiral L.F. Holland, C.B., received an unlucky hit in the magazine and blew up. The Bismarck has received damage and the pursuit of the enemy continues. It is feared there will be few survivors from H.M.S. Hood."
Thousands of British sailors and citizens recalled receiving the news as the single greatest shock of the war. Several officers recalled decoding the message again and again, in the absolute certainty that an error must have been made. The story hit the papers the next day.
From http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Hood_p2.htm we see that:
"The Admiralty announced the loss of Hood at 9 P.M. on the 24th of May in the form of the following simple communiqué:
"British naval forces intercepted early this morning off the coast of Greenland German naval forces including the battleship Bismarck. The enemy were attacked, and during the ensuing action H.M.S. Hood (Captain R. Kerr, C.B.E., R.N.) wearing the flag of Vice-Admiral L.F. Holland, C.B., received an unlucky hit in the magazine and blew up. The Bismarck has received damage and the pursuit of the enemy continues. It is feared there will be few survivors from H.M.S. Hood."
Thousands of British sailors and citizens recalled receiving the news as the single greatest shock of the war. Several officers recalled decoding the message again and again, in the absolute certainty that an error must have been made. The story hit the papers the next day.
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Antonio,
I did not know the Admiralty asked Wake-Walker about his intentions to reengage .
What did W-W answer, if anything, and at what approximate time ?
I did not know the Admiralty asked Wake-Walker about his intentions to reengage .
What did W-W answer, if anything, and at what approximate time ?
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
you can read it yourself on the Adm Tovey Official dispacthes ADM 234 - 509 at points 23-24-25-26 ( written erroneously as 28) :
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm
This is what Alberto Virtuani calls the " Masterpiece Poem " written to justify his intentions not to re-engage.
At point 22 on the same document, you have Capt Leach official explanation about his PoW disengagement decision.
Notice the absence in Capt Leach statement of any data and timing, those being provided upfront ( and are incorrect as we all know today ) by Adm Tovey at point 19.
This document is the final act of the " cover up " by Adm Tovey, ... putting all the events in such a way to justify everything and enable the future planned recognition of October 1941.
This is the reason why, when I started my discussion about all these facts 2 years ago, I started from points 17 and 19 of this document, in order to explain the logic of this data modification activity being done on 1941, done on purpose in order to change the whole logic of the events, ... justify them, ... do not provide further explanations ... and enable the recognitions and the medals.
Bye Antonio
@ Alecsandros,
you can read it yourself on the Adm Tovey Official dispacthes ADM 234 - 509 at points 23-24-25-26 ( written erroneously as 28) :
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 9tovey.htm
This is what Alberto Virtuani calls the " Masterpiece Poem " written to justify his intentions not to re-engage.
At point 22 on the same document, you have Capt Leach official explanation about his PoW disengagement decision.
Notice the absence in Capt Leach statement of any data and timing, those being provided upfront ( and are incorrect as we all know today ) by Adm Tovey at point 19.
This document is the final act of the " cover up " by Adm Tovey, ... putting all the events in such a way to justify everything and enable the future planned recognition of October 1941.
This is the reason why, when I started my discussion about all these facts 2 years ago, I started from points 17 and 19 of this document, in order to explain the logic of this data modification activity being done on 1941, done on purpose in order to change the whole logic of the events, ... justify them, ... do not provide further explanations ... and enable the recognitions and the medals.
Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Ah, I knew about that one, I thought it was something else...
Thanks,
Thanks,
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
that is the summary " Poem " for the Adm Tovey dispatches.
What is interesting to re-construct is what was behind it, ... on the radio messages between Leach and Wake-Walker ... and with the Admiralty.
Bye Antonio
@ Alecsandros,
that is the summary " Poem " for the Adm Tovey dispatches.
What is interesting to re-construct is what was behind it, ... on the radio messages between Leach and Wake-Walker ... and with the Admiralty.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
... Are the messages behind the "Poem" available somewhere ?
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
some of them you can read on Wellings book link I have posted, ... some are into the ADM 199-2227 Dunmunro posted being received by the Home Fleet, ... some are only available on Norfolk and Suffolk available radio logs.
We do not have yet the PoW radio log ... ... consequently in order to have the whole scenario you need to put together all the messages from the various sources ... and like in the case of the 08:00 of the PoW to the Admiralty which at first declared the reason why PoW disengaged, ... you can find it only on some sources ( Wellings on board the HMS Rodney ) and not in other ... ...
Putting together all this is ... a monumental work ... and it is part of the whole work I am going to publish on my next battle account release.
You just need to be a little patient ...
Bye Antonio
@ Alecsandros,
some of them you can read on Wellings book link I have posted, ... some are into the ADM 199-2227 Dunmunro posted being received by the Home Fleet, ... some are only available on Norfolk and Suffolk available radio logs.
We do not have yet the PoW radio log ... ... consequently in order to have the whole scenario you need to put together all the messages from the various sources ... and like in the case of the 08:00 of the PoW to the Admiralty which at first declared the reason why PoW disengaged, ... you can find it only on some sources ( Wellings on board the HMS Rodney ) and not in other ... ...
Putting together all this is ... a monumental work ... and it is part of the whole work I am going to publish on my next battle account release.
You just need to be a little patient ...
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Are there any descriptions of the reactions of the officers in the war room on decoding the message from Norfolk (timed 6:15) ?
Did anyone go into a psychosis ?
Did anyone go into a psychosis ?
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
I have only read about the reactions in various places on known book accounts.
We can easily imagine the shock, because HMS Hood was a very loved warship, and there were more than 1400 lives lost there.
War is an horrible thing.
Bye Antonio
@ Alecsandros,
I have only read about the reactions in various places on known book accounts.
We can easily imagine the shock, because HMS Hood was a very loved warship, and there were more than 1400 lives lost there.
War is an horrible thing.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Was there not the immediate message ''Hood has blown up'' from POW at around 6.02, or was that purely a ''Sink the Bismarck' film fiction?'Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
@ Alecsandros,
the first message was sent by HMS Norfolk, ... from RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker the F.O. ( Flag Officer ) of the 1st C.S. ( First Cruiser Squadron - CS1 ) at 06:15.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hello everybody,
@ RF,
we do have the official Home Fleet operations document, provided by Dunmunro, where we can verify all incoming radio messages to the Home Fleet, ... and in that document there is no evidence of any PoW message as shown in the movie, ... consequently the first one received seems to be the Norfolk one from CS1, ... so from RearAdm Wake-Walker.
Unfortunately we do not have the same document for the Admiralty war room following the events, ... and I assume those were 2 different places ... since many messages are sent to both addresses, ... HF and Adm ... and CS1 in case of PoW.
But again, .. without the complete radio logs, ... PoW, Admiralty ... etc etc ... we can only rely on what we do have ...the Home Fleet, CS1, Suffolk and Norfolk logs ... we are still missing the 2 logs from where we can state something more precisely ... regarding the fact that the Movie shows something historically correct or not.
But in that movie this radio message is followed by a precise statement if I recall correctly ... and that statement is surely historically incorrect ... if one reads Capt Leach account.
Bye Antonio
@ RF,
we do have the official Home Fleet operations document, provided by Dunmunro, where we can verify all incoming radio messages to the Home Fleet, ... and in that document there is no evidence of any PoW message as shown in the movie, ... consequently the first one received seems to be the Norfolk one from CS1, ... so from RearAdm Wake-Walker.
Unfortunately we do not have the same document for the Admiralty war room following the events, ... and I assume those were 2 different places ... since many messages are sent to both addresses, ... HF and Adm ... and CS1 in case of PoW.
But again, .. without the complete radio logs, ... PoW, Admiralty ... etc etc ... we can only rely on what we do have ...the Home Fleet, CS1, Suffolk and Norfolk logs ... we are still missing the 2 logs from where we can state something more precisely ... regarding the fact that the Movie shows something historically correct or not.
But in that movie this radio message is followed by a precise statement if I recall correctly ... and that statement is surely historically incorrect ... if one reads Capt Leach account.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- paulcadogan
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Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Hi all,
The movie only has one thing in common with the actual signals as shown in the document posted by Duncan, and that is in the wording of the two messages:
Here's the sequence from the movie (and I do this from memory! )
___________________________________________________________________________
PoW's CP after Hood explodes:
Leach looking through binoculars, he lowers them.
"Good God!" He pauses.
"Yeoman!"
"Yes sir?"
"Make to Admiralty from Prince of Wales... Tell them.......Tell them the Hood has blown up."
"Aye aye sir."
Leach hangs his head in disbelief as the whine of approaching shells snaps him back to reality.....
"Starboard 15!"
"Starboard 15" someone repeats.
"Starboard 15" the helm acknowledges(?)
Cut to war room of the Admiralty. Sheppard and ACNS are looking at the plot.
Signals Rating: "Signal from Prince of Wales sir!"
Officer (Johnson) stares in silence at piece of paper in disbelief, raising it to look more closely in case his eyes deceive him.
ACNS: "Well what is it?!"
Johnson: "It says....HMS Hood has blown up."
Everyone stops what they are doing and looks up in shock.
ACNS: "Bring it here!"
ACNS looks at signal, looks at Sheppard and nods in silence.
Signals rating: "Signal from Suffolk sir!"
No one moves.
Sheppard: "Johnson." Gesturing that he should collect the signal.
Johnson: "Hood sunk. Prince of Wales and Bismarck (gulp) exchanging fire."
____________________________________________________________________
So...Norfolk's first signal "Hood has blown up" is replicated, though it fictitiously comes from PoW and her later signal "Hood sunk" is replicated as a fictitious follow-up from Suffolk, both sent in the middle of the battle instead of in its aftermath as it was in reality.
One can imagine though that the scene in the war room on receipt of the first signal could have been very similar!
Paul
The movie only has one thing in common with the actual signals as shown in the document posted by Duncan, and that is in the wording of the two messages:
Here's the sequence from the movie (and I do this from memory! )
___________________________________________________________________________
PoW's CP after Hood explodes:
Leach looking through binoculars, he lowers them.
"Good God!" He pauses.
"Yeoman!"
"Yes sir?"
"Make to Admiralty from Prince of Wales... Tell them.......Tell them the Hood has blown up."
"Aye aye sir."
Leach hangs his head in disbelief as the whine of approaching shells snaps him back to reality.....
"Starboard 15!"
"Starboard 15" someone repeats.
"Starboard 15" the helm acknowledges(?)
Cut to war room of the Admiralty. Sheppard and ACNS are looking at the plot.
Signals Rating: "Signal from Prince of Wales sir!"
Officer (Johnson) stares in silence at piece of paper in disbelief, raising it to look more closely in case his eyes deceive him.
ACNS: "Well what is it?!"
Johnson: "It says....HMS Hood has blown up."
Everyone stops what they are doing and looks up in shock.
ACNS: "Bring it here!"
ACNS looks at signal, looks at Sheppard and nods in silence.
Signals rating: "Signal from Suffolk sir!"
No one moves.
Sheppard: "Johnson." Gesturing that he should collect the signal.
Johnson: "Hood sunk. Prince of Wales and Bismarck (gulp) exchanging fire."
____________________________________________________________________
So...Norfolk's first signal "Hood has blown up" is replicated, though it fictitiously comes from PoW and her later signal "Hood sunk" is replicated as a fictitious follow-up from Suffolk, both sent in the middle of the battle instead of in its aftermath as it was in reality.
One can imagine though that the scene in the war room on receipt of the first signal could have been very similar!
Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Re: What was the first message that informed the destruction of Hood
Gentlemen,
let’s remember it was just a movie- entertainment, not a precise recreation
There are a full 43 seconds between the Hood in the tank at Elstree Studios blowing up and Leach ordering his turn to starboard. Oddly enough another 43 seconds passes when we return to the Denmark Straits before PoW’s CP is hit. Omitting the “dripping blood on the chart scene” there are only 18 seconds between the hit and Leach shouting down the voicepipe.
Regarding the real world we discussed the Compass Platform hit at length in The hit on PoW Compass Platform thread.
Recently we have seen a still from the movie used to suggest that Leach was able to continue to use the Compass Platform for command decisions after the shell hit, when in the real world it was clearly recorded that he moved to the Conning Tower after the devastating hit. The decisions of the film makers on what they choose to depict in their artificial theatrical set cannot be relied on over actual records. In the extremis of battle Leach had no time or operational personnel to test what was still operational on the CP, so he moved to the Conning Tower.
Although the B-Dienst interceptors do not record Norfolk’s 06:15B report that Hood has blown up, there is little doubt this is the first report. Why a TOO as late as 06:15? We live in an age of instantaneous communication and an expectation that someone in authority in a remote location will want to take charge/interfere. Naval commanders in WWII with W/T communications, hand coding/decoding transmission reliability issues etc knew that they still had responsibility at sea, and examples where remote high level authorities directly intervened e.g. Pound and the scattering of PQ 17 were often disastrous. It made no difference whether the Admiralty found out within 5 minutes or 50 minutes that Hood was gone.
This timetable doesn’t work, even compared with the movie, but there has been a relentless attempt to bulldoze it through, in order to validate the Conspiracy Theory.
All the best
wadinga
let’s remember it was just a movie- entertainment, not a precise recreation
In the movie,regarding the fact that the Movie shows something historically correct or not
There are a full 43 seconds between the Hood in the tank at Elstree Studios blowing up and Leach ordering his turn to starboard. Oddly enough another 43 seconds passes when we return to the Denmark Straits before PoW’s CP is hit. Omitting the “dripping blood on the chart scene” there are only 18 seconds between the hit and Leach shouting down the voicepipe.
Regarding the real world we discussed the Compass Platform hit at length in The hit on PoW Compass Platform thread.
Recently we have seen a still from the movie used to suggest that Leach was able to continue to use the Compass Platform for command decisions after the shell hit, when in the real world it was clearly recorded that he moved to the Conning Tower after the devastating hit. The decisions of the film makers on what they choose to depict in their artificial theatrical set cannot be relied on over actual records. In the extremis of battle Leach had no time or operational personnel to test what was still operational on the CP, so he moved to the Conning Tower.
Although the B-Dienst interceptors do not record Norfolk’s 06:15B report that Hood has blown up, there is little doubt this is the first report. Why a TOO as late as 06:15? We live in an age of instantaneous communication and an expectation that someone in authority in a remote location will want to take charge/interfere. Naval commanders in WWII with W/T communications, hand coding/decoding transmission reliability issues etc knew that they still had responsibility at sea, and examples where remote high level authorities directly intervened e.g. Pound and the scattering of PQ 17 were often disastrous. It made no difference whether the Admiralty found out within 5 minutes or 50 minutes that Hood was gone.
But in Antonio’s timetable it doesn’t happen at all because before there is no time to put 15 degrees of starboard wheel on, before taking it off again and turning to regain 280T degrees so as to take the Compass Platform hit at the right angle, a mere 50 (or was it 38 secs) after Hood is destroyed. Then the cowardly Captain has to order the panicked turn to port, having assumed that wrecked CP and voicepipes etc are still functioning, instead of immediately heading to the Conning tower.In the Movie
Starboard 15!"
"Starboard 15" someone repeats.
"Starboard 15" the helm acknowledges(?)
This timetable doesn’t work, even compared with the movie, but there has been a relentless attempt to bulldoze it through, in order to validate the Conspiracy Theory.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"