Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:00 am

Hi all,
I do see the inconsistencies outlined by Duncan in the various reports/testimonies, but I still consider that the Baron and Jasper accounts are the best one regarding what happened on German side..... and it is clear that Germans opened fire at 5:55.
There is NO evidence that PG retained fire more than BS, contrariwise, according to photo NH69722, it looks like PG opened fire very few seconds BEFORE Bismarck (see the cartridge on her deck and the smoke of her opening salvo in the air, while Bismarck is firing). The Baron account, from an artillery officer directly hearing and reporting Schneider exact wording for the requests to open fire, cannot be discarded. Jasper timing perfectly fits.

However, I again invite whoever doesn't agree with Antonio timetable (that is at the level of the single salvo both from BS and from PoW) to build an alternative one , not just to outline the inconsistencies...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:16 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote: However, I again invite whoever doesn't agree with Antonio timetable (that is at the level of the single salvo both from BS and from PoW) to build an alternative one , not just to outline the inconsistencies...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
And let's not forget: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!"
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:47 am

@Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
:clap:
and Carthage threat was finally eliminated, following this successful Cato's exhortation.

In this case, however, I see many speculations on a specific event, but I have not yet seen any complete alternative to Antonio's timeline that reconcile as many data and info as his one.....

Have you any ? Still "indisposed" ? Still sure an abacus is better than a computer crashing under certain circumstances ? :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Cag » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:36 pm

Hi All

Firstly may I say that when I started this subject I did not set out to call into question Antonios map. It is the most accurate we have had and I do understand the amount of work put into it.

I'm sure that Antonio has spotted the inaccuracy that exists, when I read Paul's paper it began to answer all kinds of questions that had bugged me for a long while, which when added to the forum posts I've read posted by far more reasoned experts than I could ever be, ideas and possible answers to these inaccuracies began to make sense.

I am buried in maps at the moment, battle maps new salvo/Rowell maps etc to try and help resolve the miss matched pieces of evidence (all done by hand I'm afraid so time consuming I apologise). Rowell admits he is quite certain about the open fire time and of others he admits he may be up to 2 minutes out. He states that the flag signal was flown from Hood to turn 20° to port and not executed until 2 minutes later, is there a reason for this?

This man was directly responsible for conning the ship to instructions given by his Captain and his Admiral on Hood. His times may be out, his, and many others, memories may be mistaken, but to be so far out in the sequence of events is hard to understand. To coin a phrase he, and many others on the British side, have put the cart before the horse.

We know that the time on the different groups of ships were not synchronised, so what was 05.55 on Prinz Eugen may have been 05.54 or 05.56 on PoW (remember there was the time coordination between Hood and PoW on the gunnery channel pre battle). We have to factor in shell flight time (about 40 sec for PG at the 202hm range iirc) but a main point was, if the turn was later than 05.55 as Paul suggests and Rowell was inaccurate in his timing here, but not his testimony, which is possible, then it may be also theoretically possible for a small open fire delay on the German side to exist, and for Hood to be hit before the turn as the British have recorded in their evidence. It is hard to ignore that all the British evidence suggests simultaneous open fire by both sides, yet delay on the German side, there must be an answer.

There are many parts of the battle that I struggle with, they do not seem to add up. As a very wise man told me the Rowell map is wrong, yet it is right, and that is true. Paul Cadogans idea that the turn was later also resolved some other problems for me, it resolved the A arcs opening at salvo 9 and explained the lack of possible fire earlier, Hoods explosion being slightly earlier explained the salvo 12 hit, as well as others.

I'm no expert, I regard those who have regularly posted on this forum as being experts. My hope is that a definitive agreed answer may be found.

As always best wishes
Cag.

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:36 pm

@Cag:
Hi Mr.Cag,
I sincerely appreciate your efforts and I do understand the difficulties ! :clap:
you wrote: "He states that the flag signal was flown from Hood to turn 20° to port and not executed until 2 minutes later, is there a reason for this?"
My 2 cents opinion here is that the order to turn, possibly ordered at 5:53, was actually executed at around 5:55 (as per all the available maps), while McMullen still retained fire of Y turret as a precaution, being too much trained fore over the deck where they were preparing the plane and the correct enemy range was not yet found. Thus Y turret was used only after 5:57:30, when the situation imposed to forget precaution. Just my theory of course...... This scenario however does't explain why Rowell says that the turn was ordered after the Hood deck hit; can it be simply a mistake ?
It may be, on the other hand, that the turn was ordered at 5:55 and executed at 5:57:30, but then why Rowell's own maps would be showing the turn at 5:55, as well as the gunnery plot ? :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Cag » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:32 pm

Hi All

Hi Alberto it is a puzzler! Not only Rowell but Leach Briggs Tilburn and Tovey all put the boat deck hit before the turn which would mean that they were all mistaken?


I do believe there has to be an answer but what it is I'm not sure yet, only an opinion.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by wadinga » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:11 pm

Hello All,

Because Rowell always said his maps might be 2 minutes out and maybe he meant 2 mins 30 secs!

Because he does not show the hard turn to starboard seen by the Germans, during which time PoW could not be struck on the Compass Platform and have the shell track which occurred.

Because the hit did not occur 50 secs after Hood blew up.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:28 pm

@Mr.Cag:
you wrote: "Not only Rowell but Leach Briggs Tilburn and Tovey all put the boat deck hit before the turn which would mean that they were all mistaken?"
perhaps the source of the wrong info is always the same..... or as I said the turn happened at 5:57:30 and all maps are in error..... I agree it is a puzzle. :think:


@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
perhaps, following your logic, because the DS battle never happened...... :negative:

We have discussed hundreds of times your last 2 points (and still I don't see your proposed explanation/timing: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!)", but I'm afraid there is no doubt about the way they happened......
The first one you mention is not an explanation for this discussion because the rest of his map is 100% aligned with the timing of the reconstruction.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:32 pm

@Alberto

Sometimes one has to change his point of view to see that conflicting information is possibly not conflicting at all. It's simply a matter of expectations...or like Cag said:
..the Rowell map is wrong, yet it is right...
Have a a look at plan 4, ask yourself the right questions and maybe you will find answers.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:34 pm

@Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
if you have a theory, please explain (as I try to do when answering to other people...), please don't be shy......

apparently you don't have any that can be presented in a plain and understandable way.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by wadinga » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:20 pm

Hello Alberto,

I am a bit hazy over who is Roman and who is Carthaginian in all this, but I refuse to be trampled by the near-sighted rogue elephant that says "this is the timetable- accept it or else".

Do you accept that whatever time PoW's Compass Platform was hit, she must have been sailing 280T degrees at that moment, and that it was hit after Hood blew up? These are surely incontrovertable facts. There is indeed no doubt about the way they happened but considerable doubt about when.

Paul Cadogan has come up with an excellent scenario, with a far more leisurely, but far more realistic timetable. It does not conform to the Leach instantly panics, and instantly retreats scenario. It does not suggest that Bismarck managed to hit a different ship, 50 secs including shell flight time after Hood blew up, and which is recorded as having turned hard to starboard to avoid a sinking ship ahead.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:43 pm

@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
I'm happy you have finally declared which is your preferred timetable and I respect your choice ! :clap:
Carthage has been finally destroyed, at least from your side, someone else here still prefers to ask riddles than declaring plainly what he thinks .

Fully respecting Paul's proposed scenario and hard work, as I said him in the thread dedicated to his scenario, I still think that Antonio's timetable is far more reliable. I I can accept and respect your choice that IMO is not respecting all the evidences reflected in Antonio's one (I do kindly suggest to everybody to review what is written in the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6314).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by wadinga » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:37 am

Hello Alberto,

Do you accept that whatever time PoW's Compass Platform was hit, she must have been sailing 280T degrees at that moment, and that it was hit after Hood blew up? These are surely incontrovertable facts.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:18 am

Hi Sean,
of course I do, as per my favourite timetable (hit at 6:00:48). However, I was thinking we were discussing the 5:55 turn to port...... :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Denmark Strait hits on HMS PoW

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:30 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Wadinga:
Hi Sean,
I'm happy you have finally declared which is your preferred timetable and I respect your choice ! :clap:
Carthage has been finally destroyed, at least from your side, someone else here still prefers to ask riddles than declaring plainly what he thinks .

Fully respecting Paul's proposed scenario and hard work, as I said him in the thread dedicated to his scenario, I still think that Antonio's timetable is far more reliable. I I can accept and respect your choice that IMO is not respecting all the evidences reflected in Antonio's one (I do kindly suggest to everybody to review what is written in the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6314).


Bye, Alberto
Thank you for this link. :clap: I've read the complete thread the first time this morning. :oops: Generally speaking I came to a very similar conclusion like Paul Cadogan.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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