That 0555 turn....

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paulcadogan
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That 0555 turn....

Postby paulcadogan » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:29 am

Hi all,

Decided to pull this out of the hits on PoW thread as it is a separate topic.

Here's my take on the concern as to whether the turn took place before or after Hood was hit on her boat deck:

I believe that Holland knew exactly what he was about. He was closing in to a point at which he felt comfortable that his two ships guns could have optimum ability to hit and do damage to the enemy, while maintaining what he perceived to be the optimum distance for his two ships' defensive capabilities.

The two 20 degree turns were likely planned whether the enemy was retaliating or not. Holland wanted to get the full weight of his ships fire as the range decreased, while trying to stay forward of the enemy's beam to prevent them crossing his T, So the signal flags for the first turn were hoisted at 0555, but the execution order only came after the Germans had opened fire and the ship was hit.

Ted Briggs' description - in which a turn is ordered as carnage reigned aboard Hood - and he mused that "not everyone on the flag deck is dead then", with Hood turning, firing a salvo, then the fatal blow comes....is very likely what he experienced in the hoisting of the flag for the second turn just before Hood blew up. In the trauma that followed, and with the well established idiosyncrasies of eyewitness recall, things got merged in memory.

So, to summarize, just before 0555, the first turn is ordered and the flag is raised, The Germans open fire. Hood is hit by PG at about 0556+, the boat deck fire erupts. Holland orders "Execute" and the ships go into the turn, opening the A-arcs at about 0557:30 or so (as shown on PoW's salvo plot) before the turn is complete.

Then the spotting top his hit, the base of the bridge is hit and in the increasing carnage Holland orders the second turn, the flag is raised as described by Briggs, and PoW sees it.....then the fatal salvo falls...

My two cents...

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:48 am

Paul Cadogan wrote: "......just before 0555, the first turn is ordered and the flag is raised, The Germans open fire. Hood is hit by PG at about 0556+, the boat deck fire erupts. Holland orders "Execute" and the ships go into the turn, opening the A-arcs at about 0557:30 or so (as shown on PoW's salvo plot) before the turn is complete".

Hi Paul,
while I agree that Briggs description refers to the second turn, and while I understand this timeline is explaining why PoW Y turret fired only after 5:57:30, I still see no way to discard ALL the PoW track charts presented by McMullen and Rowell (including the original Plan 4) that clearly show the turn executed at 5:55. :think:

BTW, the hit on the boat deck should be at around 5:57:10, 5:57:30 (depending when exactly Germans opened fire) due to the flight time of 2 vollsalve (flight time 35 seconds) and only the second salvo of the gabellgrouppe (flight time 31 secs) hitting Hood, allowing for some seconds to adjust fire for Jasper......


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:41 pm

Is there any McMullen signature on one of the plans? :think:
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Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi Marc,
is there anybody else onboard PoW as gunnery officer who could know the salvo sequence?


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:54 pm

Possibly not, but was it McMullen who made the tracks? Think about it.
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Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:53 pm

Hi Marc,
he surely fired the PoW salvos.....

If you have any idea re. this plot, please don't be timid, just speak loud and clear. :wink:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:11 am

Hello Alberto,

yes, he did.
Open-minded people will understand what I'm saying. :wink:
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:24 am

Hi Marc,
I'm afraid the problem is your stubborn reticence, not my lack of open-mindedness.
This is a naval forum, not a riddle weekly newspaper..... :negative: so if you have something to say, please say it without commenting on anyone else mind process.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:48 am

deleted by author
Last edited by Herr Nilsson on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Marc

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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby alecsandros » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:51 am

Deleted.
Last edited by alecsandros on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:10 am

I made no offensive remarks. :shock:
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Marc

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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby alecsandros » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:18 am

Deleted.
Last edited by alecsandros on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:30 am

:shock: Where?

The meaning of the post was:
That are the questions I were and am asking myself. I do not expect answers from anyone, but hope that Alberto at least tries to asks them himself. At least one time.
I don't want to help some particular people anymore, but still hope that they finally listen to reason. Considering that I think I'm not recticent.

I see no offence, but if you think so I will ask Jose to delete my account.


Edit: As a precaution, I deleted the complete post, because I still don't find any offence. In any case I did't want to be offensive in any way.
Last edited by Herr Nilsson on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:02 am

@Herr Nilsson:
I accept that your intention was not to offend.

However again, if you have something to say, you should say it plainly as this is a forum where people should share their ideas (as I try to do at my best)......


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: That 0555 turn....

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:03 am

Alberto, had you read the questions in that post?
Regards

Marc


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