Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Marc,
....and Lutjens himself said Hood was sunk at 6:00 in 5 minutes fight (that IMO is not necessarily in contrast with what you have posted)......


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

And Müllenheim-Rechberg stated:

...action was joined at 0442 [sic] and Hood blew up at 0458.

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Alberto yes you're correct Hood fired 4-5 salvos, but those would have been half salvos in sectors so for Hood that would occur just after 05.54.

I think in his interrogation the Baron states open fire time at 05.52 and Hoods demise at 05.58? The German interviews of Bismarck survivors are on line and IIRC there is no mention of a delay for Bismarck.

Now I realise people's memories are fallible and they may not have been privy to important happenings so we must be careful with all reports etc.

I agree that we have precise timings on both sides, that seems to contradict precise witness testimony that a hit occurred before a turn which we must somehow resolve.

Best wishes
Cag

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi all,
I agree with all your observations, still I consider that the official and signed reports from the German GO's (as well as the salvo plot from PoW for the British side fire) are the most reliable sources for determining when and with which delay Germans opened fire, more than verbal declarations or even generic answers to inquiry questions.....

According to PoW salvo plot, 4 semi-salvos from Hood would mean around 5:54:20. 5 salvos would mean after 5:55 (5:55:15).


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

And 10 salvoes?

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Marc,
hard to say. It depends on the effect of "Hood out of Action" at 5:56 (after salvo 6).....
Do you believe Hood fired 10 salvos ?


Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Hi all,
I agree with all your observations, still I consider that the official and signed reports from the German GO's (as well as the salvo plot from PoW for the British side fire) are the most reliable sources for determining when and with which delay Germans opened fire, more than verbal declarations or even generic answers to inquiry questions.....

According to PoW salvo plot, 4 semi-salvos from Hood would mean around 5:54:20. 5 salvos would mean after 5:55 (5:55:15).


Bye, Alberto

Another report from the KM side:

New opponent sighted on port! 0454: Permission to fire. 0455: Heavy artillery ready and clear! Simultaneous commencement of fire by "Hood" and first salvo from "Bismarck". 0457: our first salvo. 0458: first hit on "Hood". 0502: "Hood" explodes and sinks. 0509: Cease fire!

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/signalart.html

Note the two minute open fire delay on PE versus Bismarck

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Dunacan,
I know, we have also German survivors from Bismarck (interrogated after being rescued) that stated it was Hood to hit Bismarck, not PoW , as well as we have British witnesses that insist they saw Bismarck on fire after being hit (like Hood after the deck hit..... )......

IMHO these witnesses, albeit interesting, are in no way enough to supersede the precise timing and synchronization given by PG official reports as posted above AND confirmed by the analysis of the photo NH69722, showing the very first salvos (no other smoke in the air behind BS), that confirms that the 2 German ships opened fire almost simultaneously, IMO with a slight advance for PG, looking to the expended cartridges on her deck and to the smoke.


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Marc,
hard to say. It depends on the effect of "Hood out of Action" at 5:56 (after salvo 6).....
Do you believe Hood fired 10 salvos ?


Bye, Alberto

Schmalenbach said so. So if you believe in 4-5 salvoes, you also have to believe in 10 salvoes.

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Dunacan,
I know, we have also German survivors from Bismarck (interrogated after being rescued) that stated it was Hood to hit Bismarck , as well as we have British witnesses that insist they saw Bismarck on fire after being hit (like Hood after the deck hit..... )......

IMHO these witnesses, albeit interesting, are in no way enough to supersede the precise timing and synchronization given by PG official reports as posted above AND confirmed by the analysis of the photo NH69722, showing the very first salvos (no other smoke in the air behind BS), that confirms that the 2 German ships opened fire almost simultaneously, with a slight advance for PG, looking to the expended cartridges on her deck and to the smoke.


Bye, Alberto

Official reports say that Prinz Eugen fired later than Bismarck. Just the wrong caption of Busch relates NH 69722 to the first salvo.

[Alberto Virtuani]

@ Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
I have NOT asked you what Schamalenbach said (I know it very well and I have my opinion about the count, fairly correct IMO), I have asked you what you believe, as usual without any answer.....

you wrote: "Official reports say that Prinz Eugen fired later than Bismarck"

Official reports says they open fire almost simultaneously. Where are official reports speaking of a delay of 2+ minutes between BS and PG ?

you wrote: "Just the wrong caption of Busch relates NH 69722 to the first salvo."

Wrong according to whom ? The distance between the ships is exactly what we should expect at the beginning of the battle and apart from the 2 smokes there is NO other smoke in the air, while the cartridges on the deck demonstrate PG has already fired at least one salvo.

Now, be so kind to let us know your interpretation and your timing of the photo NH69722, please.


Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

@ Herr Nilsson:
Hi Marc,
I have NOT asked you what Schamalenbach said (I know it very well and I have my opinion about the count, fairly correct IMO), I have asked you what you believe, as usual without any answer.....

you wrote: "Official reports say that Prinz Eugen fired later than Bismarck"

Official reports says they open fire almost simultaneously. Where are official reports speaking of a delay of 2+ minutes ?

you wrote: "Just the wrong caption of Busch relates NH 69722 to the first salvo."

Wrong according to whom ? The distance between the ships is exactly what we should expect at the beginning of the battle and apart from the 2 smokes there is NO other smoke in the air, while the cartridges on the deck demonstrate PG has already fired at least one salvo.

Now, be so kind to let us know your interpretation and timing of the photo, please.


Bye, Alberto

Alberto,

I believe Schmalenbachs account contains a lot of usefull information. I take the number of salvoes into consideration.

The official reports are saying nothing about simultaneously. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are firing, that's the information. The accounts are from Prinz Eugen's point of view with almost no information about Bismarck. We can't find any clear information about the time Bismarck opened and ceased fire.
There is just one single statement made by Brinkmann that is clear in regard of the order, but still vague in regard of the distance in time.
Brinkmann states that Bismarck fires first and Prinz Eugen "kurz darauf". In any case that's not simultaneously and also not almost simultaneously, because he wouldn't mention the order of firing and "kurz darauf" otherwise. "Kurz darauf" means that there is an noticeable delay. Maybe some seconds, maybe a minute, possibly even more. In a nutshell, we can't rule out the two minutes with the German accounts reliably. However, as a native speaker I would tend to a delay of 15-45.

->My interpretation is, that NH 69722 can't be Bismarck' very first salvo.

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

Once again Marc is correct in deflating the dogmatic, rigid and yet unsupported assumptions dressed up as "proven facts that characterize the Immutable Timetable.

Here is Busch in Ersten Gefecht confirming Bismarck fired before PG

“ ‘Bismarck’ has hoisted Jot Dora [permission to fire]! ‘Bismarck’ has opened fire!” the NCO cries out. “Order from the Commander: permission to fire!”
It is now 0445 local time as our first salvo is fired against the opponent one second after the Commander’s order.

and later

And then “Bismarck” fires, and the painter runs across to the starboard bridge wing, because the battleship is in a slight starboard staggered position in relation to “Prinz Eugen”. He [the painter] watches the unfolding picture of power that our flagship projects: clad in giant clouds of powder vapors which rapidly swirl aft because of flank speed, its barrels directed toward the enemy, the rangefinders and the entire superstructure illuminated by the fiery bright firing flashes. One, two salvoes burst away, then the specialist [painter] hurries back to capture a view of the impacts at the enemy. And right in the middle of his walk, right behind the small protective screen that is provided for the signal crew of the watch, he is slammed with sheer brutal force against the mast: our own turrets have opened fire!

This contradicts, as do most other reports the assumption (not proven fact) that NH69722 depicts Bismarck's very first salvo, fired after PG has already deposited shell casings. The second account says Bismarck has fired two salvoes before PG starts.

The question is the delay between Bismarck opening fire herself and issuing the Jot Dora? We do not have a translation of Brinkmann's handwritten observations on the KTB about the lack of fire distribution orders from the flagship, and we know Jasper was expecting this too and noted he had to make up his own mind what to do. These are criticisms of Lutjens' failure to issue clear instructions to PG and thus which might have entailed delay, perhaps as much as the three minutes Suffolk's account suggests.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Marc,

you wrote:"I believe Schmalenbachs account contains a lot of usefull information. I take the number of salvoes into consideration."

we agree here (even if I don't see yet a clear answer to my question re. your opinion on the salvo count.....but I guess I should accept this ambiguous statement )

you wrote: "The official reports are saying nothing about simultaneously. "

here I totally disagree (at least reading the English translation of the official reports), please see below:

Schmalenbach: "Hood had fired 4 to 5 salvos by the time Bismarck and we had answered"

Brinkmann: ""5:53: Hood and KGV open fire....... 5:55 PG and Bismarck return fire..."

crystal clear for me: BS and PG open fire together..... a "native speaking" interpretation is welcome of course .....

I asked: "Now, be so kind to let us know your interpretation and timing of the photo, please."

you wrote: "NH 69722 can't be Bismarck' very first salvo."

.....and this again is neither a motivated answer nor an interpretation..... ......while I have stated clearly why I believe this is the very first salvo of both ships (smoke analysis in addition to F.O.Busch caption) , at what time it has been taken (5:55) on which course (220°) and with a distance of 1500, 2000 meters between the 2 ships.

Let me try again: in your opinion 1) why this is not the first salvo ? 2) what is the battle time of this photo ? and 3) which salvo number is this one ? 4) what is the course and relative position of the 2 ships ?


Bye, Alberto

[paulcadogan]

Hi all,

Although I've said I was comfortable with the open fire time of 0555 for the Germans, I really find this discussion very thought-provoking. There are so many contradictions surrounding the action that I fear we cannot resolve definitively. I'm keeping an open mind - as Wadinga said - rigidly adhering to a given timeline as "proven fact" is just not realistic.

Looking into the origin of Lindemann's famous words, quoted by Wikipedia as:

"Ich lasse mir doch nicht mein Schiff unter dem Arsch wegschießen. Feuererlaubnis!" (I'm not letting my ship get shot out from under my arse. Open fire!)

With the note:

This quotation is cited by Burkard Freiherr von Müllenheim-Rechberg, who at the time was in the rear gun director watching for Suffolk and Norfolk and listening to Schneider's gunnery commands over the fire control intercom. It was most likely reported by a surviving crew member who overheard the conversation between Schneider and Lindemann over the gunnery telephone.[54]

with reference given as Gruetzner 2010, P. 180.

I've always wondered how come at that point, with Schneider's finger on the trigger, there was time for Luetjens (not Lindemann) to order the hoisting of JD for PG to open fire, allowing PG to fire first. Also, even if Luetjens DID give the order for Bismarck to fire, why would Schneider wait for the order to be given to PG?

Regarding the photo NH69722, one has also to take into account the wind direction, which was blowing the gunsmoke upwards and to port - i.e. out of the picture. So it is quite possible for Bismarck to have fired prior to the photo being taken. Also, is it likely that the photographer would have been set up to capture Bismarck's very first salvo when he did not know when she was going to fire? One would think that once she fired at least once, he would then prepare to capture the next one.

Regarding Hood's salvos, Schmalenbach estimated 10 - which I think is the most realistic figure we have. Leach said 5 or 6!! 10 salvos fit remarkably well with PoW's salvo plot up to 0558. After 0558, if you look at the plot, you will see that the time between each semi-salvo in a pair becomes longer and the gap between each pair gets shorter - as if time sector firing was no longer happening. http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... encIVa.gif

But back to PG's shooting. My interpretation of Jasper's description is that he fired a vollsalve for which he could not distinguish the fall of shot followed by a 4-hektogruppe (400 m bracket) which was fired AS a vollsalve with 3 different ranges set, resulting in 2 splashes short and the others unseen, hidden by Hood. With the fall of bracketing group, the fire was seen to spring up on Hood's boat deck. According to the translation in the KTB, Jasper doesn't say that he fired another bracketing group, only that the fire sprang up with the fall the bracketing group. Immediately thereafter he received the order to switch fire to PoW. This is not compatible with 6 salvos at Hood as stated by Brinkmann.

So...were there 2 bracketing groups or one? Why would Jasper fire a second gabelgruppe (bracketing group) in 3 four-gun semisalvos, when his 4-hektogruppe (which is a gabelgruppe in its own right?) had established the range to Hood?

Paul