Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

[dunmunro]

I think we have to refocus on the timings from the unengaged ships. Suffolk's narrative is pretty clear and is timed to the half minute. It correlates well to similar timings from Norfolk and is supported by I.C. Schmitz on PE while Brinkmann agrees with Schmitzs' timings in the Signal article. Schmitzs' timings are likely to be most accurate prior to PE opening fire.

[alecsandros]

I am abit more skeptical on to the positions of the Bismarck relative to Prinz Eugen, and of Prince of Wales relative to Hood.
We have essentialy no validated bearings between those pairs of ships in the critical minutes of action, and thus no precise way of identifiying the possibilities of hits/salvos between them.

Thus I can not dismiss the earlier thought that the first 380mm hit on Prince of Wales compass platform could have been an un-intentional "over" , from a salvo aimed at Hood, and fired into the air before the deflagration was noticed.

What strikes me, somewhat, is the small number of hits obtained by Bismarck firing against Prince of Wales. In the Prinz Eugen film, we count 5 or possibly 6 semi-salvos fired in little less then 1 minute. Bismarck fired for more then 1 minute against Prince of WAles - some 2-2.5 minutes , if not 3 on steady course, and 6 more minutes after the sounding of the torpedo alarm. Compare that to maximum 5 minutes of firing against Hood , coming at an accute angle and at 29kts, producing at least 2 , if not 3 direct hits... At longer range.

This raises speculation that there was something off or inefficient in Bismarck's firing against PoW...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Alec,
I agree that Bismarck average hit rate was not astonishing (3 hits in 9 minutes firing).

I would say that Hood was a difficult target, being more distant and with an acute angle approach with range changing quickly. But Hood was on a steady course, with the exception of the 5:55 turn, executed slowly to avoid scrambling her own gunnery).

Let's analyze the time when PoW was the target:
1) 1 minute and half on more or less steady course (from 6:00:30, let's assume this is the switch fire time, till 6:02:00, assuming the first part of the turn away is still manageable for BS firing control). In this short interval we have 3 hits: a remarkable performance indeed.
2) 1 minute (6:02 - 6:03) with PoW turning very hard to port under smoke, target is much more difficult to hit. 0 hits. Not exceptional (PG hit at least once in this interval, but her performance was less impressive with PoW on steady course).
3) 1 minute with Bismarck turning to avoid "torpedoes" (2 turns of about 30 seconds duration 6:03-6:03:30 and 6:05:15-6:05:45).
4) 5 minutes with Bismarck on steady course (20° and 220°), but PoW still turning sharply or even zig-zag-ing (?) under smoke, with range changing very quickly. Even PG did not hit anymore in such a situation.

Looking at PoW track, I'm not surprised at all that Bismarck could not hit after 6:02.....


Bye, Alberto

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Alberto I think you mean switch fire time 06.00:24 to fit your 06.00:48 time?

06.00:30 would mean the shells land at 06.00:54.

Best wishes
Cag.

[alecsandros]

hello Alberto,
Still I need to point out the following:
- range of firing against Prince of WAles was around 14km for 3 minutes, and rate of fire was high. It is probable (and if we take the film at face value) that Bismarck consumed the same amount of shells against Prince of Wales in 1.5 --- 2 minutes as she did against Hood in 5 minutes. About 40 shots or so (because the film shows at least 20 shots in less then 1 minute). First hit against Hood was from 19km or so... Prince of WAles was kept under fire from medium to short range... And on another geometry then Hood was (Hood was offering only her bow , Prince of WAles was offering her full length to targetting). Add the small time of flight at 14km (some 16 seconds?) and the shooting appears somewhat poor.

Same analysis for Prinz Eugen, who consumed much more ammunition against Prince of Wales (then Bismarck did), for a modest 4 hits (out of at least 100 fired - of which probably 60 before the hard turn away to avoid torps). Statistics of hits against targets at 14-15km show much higher hit rates for both 203 and 380mm guns against BB sized targets.

However, this is something that's occupying my mind... And dono't want to derail the thread to much. THIS doesn't shed light onto the sequence of firings.
Best,

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Alec,
I see what you mean, but the "easy" target was lasting just one minute (or one minute and half), and in this minute (and half) Bismarck hit 3 times......

I just think it's very difficult for any ship to hit a fast running target that perform some zig-zag under smoke, while turning herself to avoid torpedoes.... and the fact that PG also was unable to hit after 6:02:30 confirms this.


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

So and so. Hood was also a difficult target, at longer range, accute angle, high speed. And very importantly, Bismarck was receiving gunfire while firing on Hood... After 6:00, Bismarck was "free " to unleash on Prince of Wales. The 380mm guns had high velocity, thus the shells had a relatively low angle of fall at short to medium range, and thus the potential of hits from non-centered salvos (on the MPI) still exists. Consumption of ammo is also a factor - if Hood took 40 shots for 2 (or 3 ?) hits, Prince of Wales took more shots for 3 hits... at shorter range. It is true that , once concelead in smoke, and withdrawing in zig-zags, she was a very hard target, but that's a situation fully developing after 6:03:30, if not 6:04. The reason is it take time for the smoke screen to fully develop. In the same time interval, the ship does what ? It moves out of the battle, following a very precise curvature (sector of a circle), heeling as her rudder is forced to exit the danger zone. The ship doesn't dissapear, she is still a 220meters long battleship, moving on an understandable and observable course. AT the same time, the 2 firing platforms - Bismarck and Prinz Eugen - had the fantastic advantage of being clear of enemy gunfire (no threat to them), moving themselves at fixed courses (no course alterations from what we know in that time), thus being able to bombard the enemy with all artillery (meaning 8x380, 6x150, 8x105mm from Bismarck and 8x203, 6x105mm from Prinz Eugen).

And yes, the best opportuity to cause damage was until 6:02, when Prince of WAles started the smoke screen. However, owing to their rapid firing guns, with high velocity, and RADARS, the 2 ships should have been able to hit a BB-sized target at such close range, at least by luck, don't you think ? [as an addition, Hipper did hit HMS Glowworm through the smoke screen, and that was in 1940... radar guided guns. Against a small destroyer. At short range , but still.....]

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Alec,
possibly (but we will never know), it took some time to the German ships firing control tables to "understand" the course change at 6:01:30. It was constant, as you said, but still very sharp and I'm not sure the control table could follow such a "destroyer" like course, especially after 6:03, when PoW started her zig-zag.... The range increase rate was as bad as the one experienced in the first phase of the battle (if not worse at times, e.g. from 6:03 till 6:04, when the ships were plainly diverging by around 145°) and the smoke screen was not allowing the spot of the fall of shells......

Also Bismarck gunnery could have deteriorated somehow (with more misfires / gun problems) as we already know her overall output loss was significant (from 11% to 15% depending on the ordered shots) but we don't know when this loss happened. The Baron doesn't report any specific problem to the guns (he stated the contrary), and he was in continuous listening of the gunnery network. PG lost one gun after around 6:00 (salvo 5 against PoW) and her output may have deteriorated a bit as well with the time passing).

I still consider both the quick switch fire and the 3 hits in 1 minute as a remarkable performance from Bismarck side.


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

1 minute.. I don't know what to say. It coudl be 2...
Anyway, there are some projected hit ratios against KGV-type battleship, derived from GKDOS100. At 15km I think they expected 40% hit rate (against broadside target, if salvos are fired perfectly centered on the target), or something like that... Perhaps other colleagues know better.

[Byron Angel]

> Short of guessed or barrage fire, Bismarck would have required PoW to once again settle upon a steady heading before its FC system could compute a gunnery solution. PoW's smoke certainly did not help matters.

B

[Alberto Virtuani]

Byron Angel wrote: "Bismarck would have required PoW to once again settle upon a steady heading before its FC system could compute a gunnery solution"

Hi Byron,
I agree.

That's the reason why I think (my personal opinion only) that the PG film (lasting approx. from 6:03:40 till 6:05, while BS was on a steady course 270° herself, after the turn away due to "torpedoes", and PoW was still turning and zig-zag-ing) is not actually showing a "fire for effect" sequence but a new ranging group(s).

It looked indeed like a "rapid fire" sequence (good for propaganda...), when it was, actually, a (vain) attempt to re-establish the lost firing parameters using one (or more) quickly fired ranging group(s) (gabelgruppe).


Bye, Alberto

[paulcadogan]

That's the reason why I think (my personal opinion only) that the PG film (lasting approx. from 6:03:40 till 6:05, while BS was on a steady course 270° herself, after the turn away due to "torpedoes", and PoW was still turning and zig-zag-ing) is not actually showing a "fire for effect" sequence but a new ranging group(s).

It looked indeed like a "rapid fire" sequence (good for propaganda...), when it was, actually, a (vain) attempt to re-establish the lost firing parameters using one (or more) quickly fired ranging group(s) (gabelgruppe).

Alberto I think that is an excellent suggestion. I do believe that the reason for Bismarck's seemingly slow rate of fire overall is that PoW's smokescreen and S-curve course was very effective in making ranging difficult. PG clearly expended a lot of ammo with her faster rate of fire, but still failed to register in those closing minutes.

[alecsandros]

Gentlemen,
Still the fact remains that Bismarck was on a steady course between 6:00:00 and 6:03 or so. She was also free from return fire. Almost like in target practice. How many shots were fired during that interval ? We do not know , but from the film, the minimum possible number must be around 24, with the more likely figure of 36/40 being probable.

Thanks to a better informed colleague , from Navweapons, we have the correct hit rate for target practice (as recorded in GK-Dos100) versus battleship constructive target at 15km: it's 31.4%, or 1 hit for every 3 shots fired, if MPI is on the center of the target.

Yes, I understand the trouble caused by smoke and turning away at hard rudder, but still, with such a high m-v gun and such range (14000 to 15000 meters), my opinion is that an 8-gun ship like Bismarck should have obtained more hits...
Best regards,

[Byron Angel]

Alecs - Bismarck's steady course during the time period in question is meaningless if the target is radically maneuvering, and PoW's high speed 100+ degree turn away under cover of smoke certainly qualifies as such. Getting a correct FC solution on such an evading target is next to impossible (even with radar ranging) and, without a correct FC solution, the 30+ pct hit rate is also meaningless since the center of salvo impact cannot be placed upon the target without a good FC solution.

Not trying to be difficult or argumentative here, just expressing a matter of fact as I understand it to be.

B

[alecsandros]

Dear Byron,
We know Prince of Wales was a difficult target - shrouded in smoke, turning away...

My impression (more of an intuition if you like) is that something didn't work like it should on Bismarck and PE... Maybe crew inssuficiently trained, maybe own smoke hindering firing (the wind was blowing the smoke from exhaust stacks and from gun firings towards Prince of WAles), maybe they were doing slight course alterations, maybe something else.

The reason for my impression: at 14 - 15km, the 380mm shells fall at ~ 10 degrees AoF... This produces a huge danger space/hitting space, of about 85meters for a 15meters-high target, and 57 meters for a 10-meters high target (depending what height of Prince of WAles is considered as targettable). The 4-gun salvos had a spread of about 80meters long and 20 meters wide at this range themselves (pattern). Thus, even a non-straddling semisalvo, fired with incorrect range, but on a correct bearing, would hit the target if range between actual MPI and center of target is in error of up to 100 meters (or 77 meters for 10meters height).

The Prince of Wales didn't dissapear. She was moving at max 14 meters/second. Of those 14m/s, only a fraction would represent the range change (as Prince of Wales was just turning, not zig-zagging until 6:03 or so). Probably 2-3 meters/second... NOt more. Hence, in the reload interval of Bismarck (20-30 seconds), the change of range between the 2 ships would be of 40-60meters... well within the "reach" of "non straddling" salvos...