Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

you should not loose time following this type of useless discussions.

We have since years the correct information both on German Official available documents as well as on photo available correctly captioned by eyewitnesses ( both Josef Lagemann, the PK photographer which took the photo, ... as well as Fritz Otto Busch on his 1943 book ).

Bundesarchiv_RM_7_1448.jpg
Bundesarchiv_RM_7_1448.jpg (121.21 KiB) Viewed 1173 times
Open_fire_sequence_DS.jpg
Open_fire_sequence_DS.jpg (42.85 KiB) Viewed 1173 times
continue with the associated photos demonstrating the correct document text declaration.
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

continue with the photo correctly captioned by Lagemann and Busch :
Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpg
Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpg (94.34 KiB) Viewed 1172 times
Busch_caption_1943.jpg
Busch_caption_1943.jpg (61.72 KiB) Viewed 1172 times

… even not knowing the German Language the text of both the document as well as the photo captions should be clear enough.

In case one can use Google translator … :wink:

… end of the story, … hopefully forever.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

you should not loose time following this type of useless discussions.

We have since years the correct information both on German Official available documents as well as on photo available correctly captioned by eyewitnesses ( both Josef Lagemann, the PK photographer which took the photo, ... as well as Fritz Otto Busch on his 1943 book ).


Bundesarchiv_RM_7_1448.jpg

Open_fire_sequence_DS.jpg

continue with the associated photos demonstrating the correct document text declaration.
From the above:
George vor sich zu haben. Entfernung uber 300 hm. Um 05,53 Uhr
eroffnen "Hood"_ und "Prince of Wales" auf etwa 290 hm. das Feuer auf
den Verband. Um 05,55 Uhr wird es von "Prinz Eugen" und "Bismarck"
erwidert. Beide Schiffe schiffe zunachst "Hood" und liegen nadn

George in front of him. Distance over 300 hm. At 05.53 clock
opened "Hood" _ and "Prince of Wales" at about 290 hm. the fire on
the association. At 05.55 it will be from "Prinz Eugen" and "Bismarck"
reciprocated. Both ships ship first "Hood" and lie nadn

So we have Hood and PoW (how could he know that?) opening fire at ~31k yds (and how could he know even an incorrect range?) and then the suggestion that PE fired first which is clearly not true. The above account is worthless and obviously not based upon first hand observation. Of course we all know that photographers are far more accurate in their observations than painters... :lol:
Schmitz-Westerholt (Prinz Eugen), September 1941
Neuer Gegner an Backbord in Sicht! 4.54 Uhr: Feuererlaubnis, 4.55 Uhr: Schwere Artillerie klar! Gleichzeitig mit Feuerbeginn von "Hood" erste Salve "Bismarck". 4.57: unsere erste Salve. 4.58 Uhr: erster Treffer auf "Hood". 5.02 Uhr: "Hood explodiert und sinkt. 5.09 Uhr: Feuer einstellen!

New opponent sighted on port! 0454: Permission to fire. 0455: Heavy artillery ready and clear! Simultaneous commencement of fire by "Hood" and first salvo from "Bismarck". 0457: our first salvo. 0458: first hit on "Hood". 0502: "Hood" explodes and sinks. 0509: Cease fire!
The above is clear, concise and matches observations from the 3 RN ships, which he could not have known about.

The evidence is overwhelming that all 3 battleships opened fire within 30 seconds with PE opening fire ~two minutes later.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

I suggest to the " fantasies " writer above to read carefully the book : " Prinz Eugen im ersten Gefecth " available also on this website in the translated version.

This way maybe he will be able to realize what the PK ( War artist ) Julius Ceasar Schmitz-Westerholt was doing on board the Prinz Eugen during that timeframe directly from Fritz Otto Busch.

A photo, ... is by fact much more reliable than a sentence written on a paint caption, ... simply because it shows an event captured by the photo camera, ... with no possible alterations or errors like in the case of an handmade paint caption.

In this case the photo fully confirms the text of the report submitted to the Kriegsmarine high command, showing the Bismarck first salvo being fired few seconds after the Prinz Eugen first salvo.

Since we know perfectly at what time Prinz Eugen opened fire from his various official reports, ... all is clear.

End of the " fantasies " ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio, even Busch writes in his book that Bismarck fired before Prinz Eugen.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

Busch wrote also the caption of the Bismarck first salvo photo on his 1943 book, ... and I have attached it above, ... together with the PK Josef Lagemann one that was donated from Lagemann to the Bundesarchiv with that note written behind it, ... and that photo clearly shows that the Bismarck first salvo occurred after the Prinz Eugen first salvo as the photo by itself demonstrate.

The Prinz Eugen open fire time should not be in discussion, ... given the written evidences on reports, ... the fired cartridges on the main bridge and the smoke drifting away confirm that is the Prinz Eugen first salvo.

Behind the Bismarck there is not any additional smoke of any previously fired salvo, ... confirming that is the first one, ... just as Lagemann and Busch captioned the photo, ... in my opinion correctly.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:59 pm

The Prinz Eugen open fire time should not be in discussion, ... given the written evidences on reports, ... the fired cartridges on the main bridge and the smoke drifting away confirm that is the Prinz Eugen first salvo.
Except for the reports from Lutjens (0552: engaging...) all 3 RN ships, Brinkmann in the PE War Diary, and Schmitz-Westerholt's clearly stated timings*. PE waited several minutes to open fire while Bismarck opened fire within 30 seconds. Over the years the correct sequence has been corrupted due to the poorly worded PE War Diary, and the loss of PE's detailed gunnery reports.

The idea that no KM ship fired until ~0555 is simply ludicrous, and would have been noted with great interest on the RN side.

The photos are not timed and are meaningless.

*endorsed by Brinkmann, IIRC.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by northcape »

To stubbornly take a photo caption from a bystander (e.g. somebody who ist not doing a gunnery report; or we don't even know who put this caption to the photo) as hard proof ("First salvo") is unbelievably naiive and just shows once again that Antonio lives out of touch with reality. There is not the slightest real evidence that this photo shows the first salvo of Bismarck.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Bill Jurens »

I find it somewhat unlikely that the interpretation of the photo as shown on this thread is correct.

First, it seems unlikely to me that the cartridge cases from main battery fire would, in action, be lined up so neatly along the side. My recollection -- which may be incorrect -- is that the empty cases were ejected from the turrets and allowed to roll freely until an engagement was over. Collecting and sorting them during action would seem a perilous occupation at best, and would not seem to be of any practical advantage.

Further, I suspect the cloud of smoke identified as coming from the main battery of Prinz Eugen more likely represents funnel smoke streaming more-or-less directly astern and seen in forced perspective.

But I could be wrong...

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the Prinz Eugen KTB ( war diary ) clearly state that both Prinz Eugen and Bismarck returned fire at 04:55 German Time ( 05:55 battle time ).

Brinkmann reports up to KM command always state 04:55 (05:55).

The Prinz Eugen Gunnery Officer Paulus Jasper clearly state 04:55 (05:55).

Adm Lutjens radio message clearly state Hood sunk after around 5 minutes at 06:00, ... it is enough a simple calculation here.

The Baron Mullenheim-Rechberg described on his book the waiting situation ( seconds becoming minutes ) on board the Bismarck very clearly.

Those are the main officially reported timing and facts on the German side.

Moving to the photo, ...

There is no smoke other than the just fired salvo behind the Bismarck, ... since we have clear examples of a different situation were we can see the various salvos smoke just fired behind her, ... this must be her first salvo.

The smoke leaving the Prinz Eugen can either be her funnel smoke or her first fired salvo drifting away behind the heavy cruiser, ... the smoke itself is not sufficient to determine that Prinz Eugen just fired her first salvo, ... but the just fired 3 cartridges well visible on the main deck are conclusive in this direction, ... and Prinz Eugen could have only fired her first salvo consequently, ... not more than one for sure.

I really do not see how one can think to refute the official documents stating 04:55 ( 05:55 ) as well as the photographic evidence of this well documented event.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@Bill Jurens

The German ships made almost no smoke. I consider it more likely that the smoke is from a previous salvo of Bismarck. In any case the smoke fits into the same gunnery smoke pattern of Bismarck seen later in that engagement.
Bild2.jpg
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Image
@Antonio

Actually no official German report really clearly says that Prinz Eugen opened fire at the same time or even before Bismarck. The closest one to "at the same time" is Schmalenbach. The only official report which is definite is from Brinkmann and he says Bismarck fired first.
In regard of Lütjens: "5 Minuten" and a full hour like "um 6:00 Uhr" are not to be taken too literally in German.
In regard of MR: "Seconds becoming minutes" is a common saying and means "time refuses to pass" and to be taken literally as well.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote: "no official German report really clearly says that Prinz Eugen opened fire at the same time or even before Bismarck"
Hi Marc,
well, I would say it quite differently: all official German reports (the ones specifying this aspect) say PG opened fire at the same approximate time than BS: PG KTB: 05:55, 2 minutes after British (05:53) and Schmalenbach (after 4 to 5 Hood's salvos = 2,5 / 3 minutes after).
The Baron confirms this, saying that Schneider spoke about British well-grouped salvos and of a quite long delay (of "minutes", generic but not seconds).

No official German report at all says BS opened fire minutes before PG, as per someone's fantasies..... Again, who pushed first the fire button, after JD signal, is almost irrelevant (even if NH69722 analysis + Lagemann/Busch caption seems to contradict Brinkmann).


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Alberto,

before we can talk about a particular time we should talk about the sequence, but.....

no, the 05:55 in the KTB only applies to Prinz Eugen it does not necessarily apply to Bismarck, because Lindemann wrote an own KTB. And Brinkmann is very definte in the narrative who fired first so you can think about the validity of just a short note in the table. And (almost?) all official British sources and witnesses say that Bismarck opened fire shortly after Hood and probably before Prince of Wales. And Busch states in his book he heard the roaring of Bismarck's gunnery inside the artillery command post before Prinz Eugen opened fire. And Schmitz-Westerholt on the admirals bridge says in Busch's book that Bismarck fired 2! salvoes before Prinz Eugen opened fire.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,


Bismarck firing salvos ... one after the other ...


h69729.jpeg
h69729.jpeg (72.44 KiB) Viewed 965 times

the smoke on Nh 69722 is between the Prinz Eugen and the Bismarck, ... consequently it cannot be a Bismarck salvo, ... otherwise it will be behind the salvo ( and smoke ) that Bismarck had just fired on Nh 69722, ... and not upfront, ... just as this above photo Nh 69729 clearly demonstrate.

Bye, Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote: "no, the 05:55 in the KTB only applies to Prinz Eugen it does not necessarily apply to Bismarck"
Hi Marc,
I'm afraid this is not what PG KTB says. :negative:

If you have a better translation please let us know, but the KTB English translation (and German text according to Google Translator :wink: ) is definitely saying that BS and PG fired back both at minute 05:55, two minutes after the British. Same for Schmalenbach. The Baron confirms the delay, Jasper confirms the absolute timing.

PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg (74.11 KiB) Viewed 965 times

Reading it, PG KTB even suggests PG fired first, contradicting Brinkmann narrative, but we speak about seconds, surely not minutes.....


Bye, Alberto
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