Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:
Alecsandros,

it has cost me quite a lot of money to obtain a genuine Kriegsmarine regulation for the meaning of the instructions a artillery officer has to made. I'm just writing what Eich's and von Müllenheim-Rechberg's accounts mean as prescribed by this regulation. So my opinion is actually irrelevant. However, once you have straddled your opponent it was actually standard procedure to order "Gut schnell!".
Many thanks for your reply.

I am still abit weary of accepting the line of events proposed by the Baron. Speed, angle, range were somewhat unfavorable for continous shootings...
After all, as Prince of Wales's salvos indicate, a straddle doesn't necessarily mean a continous (and correct) firing solution had been obtained.
The question is: did the Baron hear Schneider or not? As long as we consider him reliable, we simply have to accept "Vollsalve". The Baron was 3rd gunnery officer, he obviously had no problem with it. It doesn't matter what the AVKS says.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Cag wrote: "how would this fit with the Prinz Eugen salvos....?"
Hi Mr.Cag,
here you have my (2 cents) proposed salvo chart for PG (in the same format as for BS), while firing at Hood only (as for BS, I have tried to cover also the full duration of the battle based on what we know):
PG_Salvos_to_Hood.jpg
PG_Salvos_to_Hood.jpg (46.98 KiB) Viewed 1258 times
As it would be clearly impossible to fit all evidences (not speaking of accounts, etc.), I have chosen to trust Jasper (and Hunter-Terry) timings for the switch fire order, not the PG KTB one (that points to 6 salvos instead of 5), nor the PG battlemap (drawing 5:59 as timing for switch fire).

May I ask you another pleasure in the meantime? May you post the English version of the Baron book also for the paragraphs after the open fire (those related to the action against Hood), hoping of course that it is a reliable translation from German, as it seems somehow different from the Italian (E.Bagnasco 1984) one.... ?

Many thanks in advance


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote: The question is: did the Baron hear Schneider or not? As long as we consider him reliable, we simply have to accept "Vollsalve". The Baron was 3rd gunnery officer, he obviously had no problem with it. It doesn't matter what the AVKS says.
... Rapid fire as I understand it, would produce substantial ammo consumption in the given time interval (presumably at least 3 minutes of continous fire on Hood).

Problem is: we do not know any information on Bismarck's fall of shot. We are moving in the dark. We "know" semisalvo1 was an over, semisalvo2 was a short. We also know "salvo 5" (whatever it means) destroyed Hood. We have very limited info for what happened in between. Maybe "salvo 3" (or semisalvo 3 ? who knows ?) produced a hit in Hood's foretop.

What of the others ? Where did they land ? Did they straddle or not ?

I'm thinking: what if Schneider did order rapid fire as the Baron wrote. What if Bismarck fired a few semisalvos and missed ?
If Schneider would have cancelled rapid fire, what order would he give ?
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote: The question is: did the Baron hear Schneider or not? As long as we consider him reliable, we simply have to accept "Vollsalve". The Baron was 3rd gunnery officer, he obviously had no problem with it. It doesn't matter what the AVKS says.
... Rapid fire as I understand it, would produce substantial ammo consumption in the given time interval (presumably at least 3 minutes of continous fire on Hood).

Problem is: we do not know any information on Bismarck's fall of shot. We are moving in the dark. We "know" semisalvo1 was an over, semisalvo2 was a short. We also know "salvo 5" (whatever it means) destroyed Hood. We have very limited info for what happened in between. Maybe "salvo 3" (or semisalvo 3 ? who knows ?) produced a hit in Hood's foretop.

What of the others ? Where did they land ? Did they straddle or not ?
Who knows? I'm not trying to establish a particular timeline to the split of the second. I'm just explaing the meaning of the orders the Baron and Eich had heard.

alecsandros wrote: I'm thinking: what if Schneider did order rapid fire as the Baron wrote. What if Bismarck fired a few semisalvos and missed ?
If Schneider would have cancelled rapid fire, what order would he give ?
"Abwarten" = Wait.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Cag »

Hi All

I'm afraid the problem is we only have the description of what occurred from Baron Müllenheim-Rechberg etc so we could theorise as to what the sequence was but if we use historical data we can only come to one conclusion.

As requested no problem,

Lindemanns permission for us to open fire was immediately followed by our first heavy salvo. The Bismarck was in action, and the rumble of her gunfire could be heard as far away as Reykjavik, the capital of Iceland. I heard Schneider order the first salvo and heard his observation on the fall of the shot 'short'. He corrected the range and deflection then ordered a 400m bracket. The long salvo he described as over the base salvo as straddling and immediately ordered Full salvos good rapid. He had thus laid his battery squarely on target at the very outset of the engagement.

I had to concentrate on watching the Suffolk and Norfolk but I must say I found it very difficult to deny myself glimpses of the mornings main event. The cruisers still twelve to fifteen nautical miles astern followed on our course a little to one side of our wake. There was no evidence that they were preparing to launch a torpedo attack. The Suffolk fired a few salvos but they fell hopelessly short. Wake-Walker in the Norfolk appeared to have left the battlefield completely in the hands of the senior officer Holland in the Hood.

I continued to hear Schneiders calm voice making gunnery corrections and observations 'The enemy is burning' he said once and then Full salvos good rapid. (If PG hit with her 2nd/3rd salvo early on in the battle then full salvos good rapid must be post Bismarck's Gabelgruppe my italics) The forward gunnery computer room was telling him at regular intervals Attention fall.

Ever since the action began I had been wondering whether I would be able to distinguish the sound of the enemy's shells hitting us from the sound of our own firing with all that noise going on that might not be that easy. Then I heard Schneider again 'Wow was that a misfire? That really ate into him' over the telephone I heard an even louder and more excited babble of voices, it seemed as though something sensational was about to happen if it hadn't already.

Convinced that the Suffolk and Norfolk would leave us in peace for a few minutes I entrusted the temporary surveillance of the horizon astern (Norfolk and Suffolk obviously only visible on the horizon at that point my italics) through the starboard director to one of my petty officers and went to the port director. While I was still turning it toward the Hood I heard a shout ' she's blowing up' She that could only be the Hood! The sight I saw is something I shall never forget.

At first the Hood was nowhere to be seen in her place was a colossal pillar of black smoke reaching into the sky. Gradually at the foot of the pillar I made out the bow of the battle cruiser projecting upwards at an angle a sure sign she had broken in two. Then I saw something I could hardly believe a flash of orange coming from her forward guns! Although her fighting days had ended the Hood was firing a last salvo. I felt great respect for those men over there.

At 0557 one of our observers had spotted a quick spreading fire forward of the Hoods after mast: the second salvo of the Prinz Eugen had set fire to ready ammunition. Four minutes later (0557 + 4 minutes = 0601 my italics) a heavy salvo from the Bismarck hit the Hood and sent a mountain of flame and a yellowish white fireball bursting up between her masts and soaring into the sky.

Hope this helps
Cag.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by alecsandros »

Cag wrote:
I continued to hear Schneiders calm voice making gunnery corrections and observations 'The enemy is burning' he said once and then Full salvos good rapid. (If PG hit with her 2nd/3rd salvo early on in the battle then full salvos good rapid must be post Bismarck's Gabelgruppe my italics) The forward gunnery computer room was telling him at regular intervals Attention fall.
Thanks Mr Cag,

I underlined my problem above.
If Bismarck was doing rapid fire,
what "corrections" was Schneider still doing ?
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Alecsandros, sorry if I didn't make it clear, if as the Baron suggests PG hit with its second salvo or possibly the first salvo of the Gabelgruppe then the corrections Schneider was giving was the Gabelgruppe.

I should imagine that even with full salvos good rapid there would have been some observation and correction to enable the full salvos to continue.

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Just a couple of questions.

If Bismarck opened fire as suggested ie 05.55:20 or so wouldn't Hood and PoW been on a steady 280° course by then meaning a steady targeting solution?

If Bismarck opened fire earlier and salvos were being aimed during the turn then the alterations would have been greater and the four gun salvo and observation makes more sense.

Also we have, as Alberto has posted, British witness testimony of 2,3, and 4 shell splashes being observed. However we know both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen fired an opening Vollsalve of 8 guns, so where are the 8 splash observations?

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Mr.Cag,
IMO the problem with the firing solution at DS was the extremely rapid range decrease, very difficult to predict (see PoW salvo plot with its wrong German course, as well as PG battlemap on the other side), more than BC1 "slight" course alteration.

Re. Vollsalve observation, you are right, however all the witnesses accounted for the splashes of (different) salvos later in the battle, no one unfortunately had "counted" the initial salvos shots. The only "observation" of a Vollsalve is Rowell's one, when he says Bismarck opened fire with all her 4 turrets.....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Well, NH 69722 clearly shows that Bismarck is firing full salvoes.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Cag »

Hi All
Hi Alberto thanks I see your point but for me it is a puzzler.

If we count salvo by salvo with splashes observed as seen by the British then we would have the fatal 5th salvo being the first four gun salvo after the Gabelgruppe, ie Vollsalve 8 splashes, Gabelgruppe 3 sets of 4 splashes, Wirkungsschießen 4 splashes?

That doesn't factor in the Prinz Eugen salvos especially the boat deck hit. The official reports say that the fifth salvo was the fatal one but we have

8 splashes Bismarck Vollsalve
8 splashes Prinz Eugen Vollsalve
4 splashes Bismarck Gabelgruppe
4 splashes Bismarck Gabelgruppe
4 splashes Bismarck Gabelgruppe
8 splashes Prinz Eugen Vollsalve
4 splashes Bismarck Wirkungsschießen no1 1st half
4 splashes Prinz Eugen Gabelgruppe
4 splashes Prinz Eugen Gabelgruppe
4 splashes Prinz Eugen Gabelgruppe
4 splashes Bismarck Wirkungsschießen no1 2nd half
4 splashes Prinz Eugen Wirkungsschießen no1 1st half
4 splashes Bismarck Wirkungsschießen no2 1st half
4 splashes Prinz Eugen Wirkungsschießen no1 2nd half
4 splashes Bismarck Wirkungsschießen no2 2nd half

And so on to Prinz Eugens 5th salvo switch and Bismarck's fatal fifth Wirkungsschießen 1st half, that is a lot of missing splashes and certainly not the 5 observed ones.

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Mr.Cag,
IMO the problem with the firing solution at DS was the extremely rapid range decrease, very difficult to predict (see PoW salvo plot with its wrong German course, as well as PG battlemap on the other side), more than BC1 "slight" course alteration.

Re. Vollsalve observation, you are right, however all the witnesses accounted for the splashes of (different) salvos later in the battle, no one unfortunately had "counted" the initial salvos shots. The only "observation" of a Vollsalve is Rowell's one, when he says Bismarck opened fire with all her 4 turrets.....


Bye, Alberto
It is a difficult problem to solve using optical ranging, but not terribly difficult with radar ranging, which gave a near continuous stream of ranging data, rather than several ranges per minute as with an optical RF.

Rowell may have witnessed Bismarck firing fore and aft salvos or two Gabelgruppes at ~0553.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Dunmunro:
Hi Duncan, you are right (except for timing, of course, BS Vollsalve was at 5:55:xx :wink: )....however PG battlemap is totally wrong re. BC1 British course, and PG had a radar, but we don't have PG salvo plot, so possibly Jasper had a better "gunnery view".


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Dave Saxton »

dunmunro wrote:
It is a difficult problem to solve using optical ranging, but not terribly difficult with radar ranging, which gave a near continuous stream of ranging data, rather than several ranges per minute as with an optical RF.

Rowell may have witnessed Bismarck firing fore and aft salvos or two Gabelgruppes at ~0553.
Bismarck's radar derived range data was hard wired directly to the computers.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Cag »

Hi All

As I pointed out in my previous post, if we use our own theory of how Bismarck and Prinz Eugen fired by Bismarck's 2nd Wirkungsschießen and Prinz Eugen's 1st we already have 15 sets of splashes landing around Hood which is far too many to have been missed or not mentioned by observers and it is this that puzzles me.

Therefore could theoretically the firing sequence of Bismarck be either?

1)Vollsalve of 8 guns seen falling in one set of splashes
2)Gabelgruppe of 8 or 6 guns fired spaced but in quick succession seen as one set of splashes (in the book the Baron does not indicate any measurement of the time gap of a Gabelgruppe simply that Schneider spotted the long salvo as over together with the base as straddling)
3)Wirkungsschießen of 8 guns seen falling in one set of splashes
4)Wirkungsschießen of 8 guns seen falling in one set of splashes
5)Wirkungsschießen of 8 guns seen falling in one set of splashes

Or?

1)Vollsalve of 8 guns fired falling in one set of splashes
2) Gabelgruppe of 8 or 6 guns fired spaced but in quick succession seen as one set of splashes
3)Wirkungsschießen No1 1st half 4 guns fired seen as 4 splashes
4)Wirkungsschießen No1 2nd half 4 guns fired seen as 4 splashes
5)Wirkungsschießen No2 1st half 4 guns fired seen as 4 splashes

Again this only accounts for the 5 Bismarck salvos and does not include the PG salvos which we know were seen as witnesses mention the cracking of the HE shells exploding overhead. Is it possible those concentrating on Hood saw the Bismarck's splashes close to her and not those which were not? (ie 4 splashes out of the 8)

Again just a thought
Best wishes
Cag.
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