Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Paul Cadogan wrote: " the open fire signal flag is an exception to the execution protocol"

Hi Paul,
thanks, I was not aware of this exception.

you wrote: "Bismarck may have fired before the JD signal was raised "

Well, having been an officer myself, for sure not before Lutjens had given permission to fire to Lindemann..... I guess the JD was raised together with the communication from Lutjens to Lindemann, so the question is still open...... For sure Jasper said he fired immediately after the "permission to fire" was given and I don't see any reason why the German admiral should have given different orders to his ships, having decided to keep PG in the line of fire.

you wrote: "....."Hood out of action" notation.......Nothing had happened to her (Hood) to cause that."

I do agree, thus it is still a mystery for me. My 2 cents opinion is that at 5:56 something in Hood gunnery itself went wrong and she was not anymore able to fire at GIC intervals with PoW, but it's just speculation.
For sure no shell had landed yet on Hood at 5:56, as just the first Vollsalve from PG and BS were landing at that battle-time (of course, if we finally accept that German ships both opened fire almost simultaneously at 5:55, as written in the official German GAR and KTB, as accounted by the Baron in a detailed sequence of events and as shown in photo NH69722.....).

Jasper account demonstrates that the Hood was still afloat (with just the deck fire) at 5:58, when he switched fire to PoW, and he was sure it was his Gabelgruppe salvos to ignite the boat deck fire, as very likely, due to Bismarck using APC shells that would have penetrated much more deeply in the Hood hull before exploding.

you wrote: "Why would Jasper fire a gabelgruppe again....."

Jasper (from his GAR below) fired 2 Vollsalve (that are AFAIK full salvos with guns firing at different ranges, thus giving a "ladder" or "Gabelgruppe") but whose purpose is mainly to correct direction and to warm up the guns, not to find range). (1 and 2 below)
Only afterward, he fired a "bracketing group (= Gabelgruppe), as per German procedures, aimed at finding the range (3 below) , that hit Hood:

PG_Jasper_Firing.jpg (99.28 KiB) Viewed 1584 times

In the thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=360 this interpretation has been discussed at long and, AFAIK, confirmed, giving a total of 5 salvos fired at Hood by PG for 28 shots (8+8+4+4+4=28).


I'm afraid that I don't see any space to move the established timeline, but I still try to keep an open mind to any alternative reconstruction.


Bye, Alberto

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Alberto, just to add to your post Jasper does state

" The fire developed on the portside of the opponent since the superstructures stood out as sharp silhouettes. Immediately thereafter I received the order from the ships command to 'change target to left' toward the second opponent (pow) whereby the fire of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen now crossed. I was unable to observe Bismarck's decisive salvo because I was no longer in a position to do so. I ordered the targeting officer to aquire the second target and thus lost the first target from the visual field of action. Consequently I did not perceive the detonation of the first target
As was the case earlier I commenced the second firing with a full salvo followed by a ranging group (straddle ladder) which zeroed me in as of 05.59"

To me Jasper is describing a switch of target as being in a proximity, time wise, to the detonation of Hood, he is not giving a precise time but in a sequence of event. He then described a similar open fire procedure on PoW to that which had happened on Hood and the second salvo bringing him on target by 05.59. He then describes the long bow of Hood in the air at 06.01 being behind PoW .

From this we know that Hood sank within 3-4 minutes so if Hoods bows were already in their death throws at 06.01 with perhaps a minute or so to go the detonation was around 05.58-05.59?

A detonation takes time to effect the ship and the ship takes time to sink.

Best wishes
Cag.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Mr.Cag,
I see what you mean, and such an explosion can very well be delayed (compared to the shell hit) by several seconds (please see Mr.Jurens explanation of how the explosion might have happened).

However, during these seconds almost nothing is visible (as per Leach account) from another ship, and Germans would have continued to fire against Hood.

Once the main magazines are ignited, it's a matter of few seconds before the internal pressure is so high that it must vent (initially through the engine room vents) and very shortly afterward the ship is blowing up with effects well visible even from long distances.

Please see the H.M.S. Barham explosion film (few seconds are destroying the whole ship, we don't see anything wrong with her while capsizing that can tell us an explosion is coming soon) and the Roma accounts, where Ten.(lieutenant) Incisa della Rocchetta tells us of the Fritz bomb hitting the deck, penetrating and exploding possibly in the engine room, igniting the 150mm magazine and sympathetically the fore main magazines (how similar to Mr.Jurens reconstruction of Hood blowing up): Incisa della Rocchetta describes a few seconds passing before he saw steam coming out of the funnel, just very few seconds before the great flame and explosion that destroyed the fore part of the ship.

We have Hunter-Terry timing stating 3 minutes of a stop-watch passed between the deck hit (5:57) and the Hood explosion (6:00) and these times perfectly match Jasper account, who did not see any Bismarck shell around PoW before 6:01, although he was spotting his own fall of shells around PoW......


Bye, Alberto

[paulcadogan]

Hi all.

@ Alberto: Yes I understand your interpretation and, from the other thread, Mark's, but the wording still seems ambiguous to me and my interpretation was the same as Alecsandros' - and it seems Brinkmann's too when he stated that the fire was started after PG's second salvo. It still puzzles me that a 3-semi-salvo gabelgruppe was necessary after a straddle ladder had established Hood's range and between the short and middle rounds. Just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, moving on, I found the British witness who noted more of PG's fall of shot than just the one noted by Hunter-Terry:

The first thing I saw was a salvo fall short of the "Hood"; the second salvo fell short astern; the next salvo I saw was a salvo of H.E. fall more or less in line amidships of the "Hood" also short. This was of smaller calibre than the other two. The next salvo I observed appeared to go over and at the same time there was a flash just before the mainmast of the "Hood" and there was a volume of black smoke which afterwards turned into grey smoke. H.E. shells burst on the other side of the "Hood" which gave me the impression that "Hood" had been hit by one of the salvos which had been fired. The "Hood" was firing with her foremost turrets. "Y" turret had been trained fore and aft during this time. "Y" turret then trained towards the enemy and before firing there was a flash abaft the mainmast of the "Hood" which appeared to be a fire on the boat-deck. "Y" turret then fired and at the same time a huge flash came up all around "Y" turret. The flash rose to well above the mainmast of the ship and all I heard was a tremendous roar and I could not see anything until the smoke had cleared away. That was all I saw of the "Hood".

P.O. Lawrence Sutton. PoW

His description of the boat deck hit and the fall of shot is remarkably similar to what was reported by Schmalenbach - fall of a Bismarck salvo, followed by a PG salvo and the fire.

We have Hunter-Terry timing stating 3 minutes of a stop-watch passed between the deck hit (5:57) and the Hood explosion (6:00) and these times perfectly match Jasper account, who did not see any Bismarck shell around PoW before 6:01, although he was spotting his own fall of shells around PoW......

Where is it stated that Hunter-Terry was using a stop watch to time the battle? And how would you use a stop watch to check on such whirlwind events during a battle when you have to start it at a point, stop it at a point, reset it, start again etc?

Here's what Terry said;

66. Were you looking at the "Hood" at the time of the expolsion?

Not at the actual moment of the explosion.

!!!! Then how could he know the precise time the hit took place???

And Jasper.....did Jasper state that he saw any salvos from Bismarck around Hood? No he didn't. Does it mean that there were none? Then he only reported one heavy salvo from Bismarck around PoW as she passed in front of Hood. He did not report any before or after. Does that mean that there were no others?

Re; the Barham comparison to Hood - Barham had 3 holes blown in her hull by torpedoes and was already half sunk by the time her magazines blew. She was a much smaller ship. Hood's entire hull from abaft her aft funnel forward was intact and had to fill with water from aft forward...

Paul

[Cag]

Hi All

Thanks Alberto, I agree however Jasper states that the switch of fire was the reason he did not see the fatal hit. He only mentions seeing Bismarcks secondary armament fire on PoW. He also states that 2 salvos were fired at PoW to zero the guns in, in a similar fashion to what happened with Hood (ie Vollsalve + bracketing Vollsalve) so we still are unsure if it was a Vollsalve Vollsalve and then a single or multiple bracket or a Vollsalve followed by a single bracket.

We also know IIRC Hunter-Terry gave Hoods open fire as 05.53 which means his watch was a little out too. I think that is part of the problem, we are attributing precise timings to statements that we cannot be sure we're precise at all.

That is why I'm concentrating on sequences, Jasper open fire, boat deck fire, target change, explosion etc and Rowell Leach etc open fire, boat deck fire, turn, explosion.

Best wishes
Cag.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Mr.Cag,
I absolutely agree that we will never be able to establish all the exact timings and that Hunter-Terry watch could be out by some seconds, however in no way Hood could have blown up few seconds after the deck hit according to his watch.

Jasper second sequence to PoW is clear 1) Vollsalve (salvo 1) 2) Gabelgruppe (salvo 2,3 and 4), zeroing him at 5:59, and then 3) fire for effect until salvo 8, when he saw PoW turning toward him and passing the remains of Hood. RoF achieved by PoW when firing for effect was 27/28 secs. His timeline perfectly matches with Hunter-Terry and a CP hit happening at around 6:01 and until the same timing no splashes from main BS armament were noted around PoW.......


Bye, Alberto

[Cag]

Hi All

Again I agree Alberto we cannot be sure.

There seems to be some confusion with Jaspers account, could not a Gabelgruppe be a single 8 gun or even 6 gun salvo set at different ranges not three seperate ones? Jasper states that the lower limiting round were 2 in number. Even a Gabelgruppe consisting of 12 guns would require them to be in the air at the same time, ie within the time it takes to reload, 28 secs?

Hunter-Terry puts the funnel hit at 06.01 not the CP hit as that and the Hacs tower and depending upon your viewpoint the 15 inch hull hit had already occurred.

I assume the CP hit and the funnel hit were from different salvos? Therefore Bismarck had to be firing on PoW prior to 06.01 with the added time of the flight of the shells of about 24 secs (ie fired about 06.00:36 to hit at 06.01). Did Bismarck hit PoW with his first salvo and then with his second?

Even if we assume a CP hit on PoW with Bismarck's 1st salvo be it a Vollsalve or Gabelgruppe there is not enough time between 06.00 and 06.01 to fit in the hit on Hood, observation and shock, order to re target, re target on PoW and fire the two salvos apparently required to hit the CP and the crane/funnel.

If it took as suggested Prinz Eugen from 05.57 to 05.59 to hit Hood and then re target PoW and be zeroed in, how did Bismarck manage this in 60 seconds?

I'm afraid we have to work out a sequence in which things are physically possible, if that sequence means the explosion of Hood was at 06.00 all well and good, but at the moment we have contradicting sequences to resolve before we commit to timings.

Best wishes
Cag.

[alecsandros]

One strong possibility is that Bismarck fired the killing salvo at 5:59:30, with salvo straddling and perforating Hood at 5:59:55, fire visibile around 6:00:00, geyser of flames errupting and Hood breaking in half until 6:00:30,
then (or slightly before the breaking in half), Bismarck fired subsequent salvo without making targetting correctinos (using the same coordinates as those used on the last salvo coordinate fired on Hood).

This is conceivable because Prince of Wales's relative position correlated to Hood and Bismarck at moment 6:00:30 probably was somewhere "in between", or "slightly in between", meaning a trajectory plotted from Bismarck's guns targetting teh sinking remains of the Hood may have intersected (or partly intersected) with Prince of Wales hull...

IF this proves to be real, then the firing methodology between Bismarck and PRince of wales at that time would be different - because the different geometrical positions of the 2 gERMAN ships...

[Cag]

Hi All

Just to add we place a great deal in the PoW salvo map. If one looks carefully at that map the opening salvo of PoW occurred about 05.53:15 secs? (ie not 05.53:00)

Her final salvo was 06.01:55? That would equate to 8 minutes and 40 seconds of action. If that is the case what happened to the other 18 seconds as PoW GAR reports a time of 8 minutes and 58 seconds of battle in the 18 salvo section?

A very wise man said the maps are right and yet they are wrong, I think this sort of shows it.

Best wishes
Cag.

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Alecsandros hope you're well sorry I missed you're post.

You're correct, if PoW was hit by a salvo aimed at Hoods sinking place but hit her instead that accounts for the CP hit. However if the funnel hit was, as is accepted, a seperate salvo how was this second salvo achieved at 06.01? I understand your thinking, you see my idea was if as is suggested we cannot shift the timeline at all how are all these things possible?

In my rough calculations and without knowing how far Hood travelled after the detonation compared to PoW there was about 730 yds of travelling in a straight line between the tip of PoW bow and the point of reaching Hoods midship section.

At 28 knots this would take about 48 secs to reach that point plus we know PoW was in an avoidance manoeuvre. It all seems too tight as PoW would have only just reached this point by 06.00:48 if Hood had no forward movement post her explosion.

That's why perhaps we should create a physically possible sequence of events and go from there?

Best wishes
Cag.

[alecsandros]

Certainly so.
If PoW was doing 29kts in the time interval that we are interested in,
then
she was travelling at approx 14 meters per second (minus the loss of speed caused by her avoidance manouvre).

IF Bismarck's guns thundered at , say (just to have a starting point) 5:59:30, time of flight 25 seconds, impact with Hood 5:59:55... Hood errupting at 6:00:05... Prince of WAles starting avoidance instantenously (I don't know if it's possible...).
Say Bismarck's guns are silent. Everyone watches. Hood explodes violently and breaks in half at 6:00:20... Everybody on board Bismarck cheers.

6:00:30 - Scheider orders firing on Prince of Wales on the same coordinates as last coordinates of Hood. 6:00:55 - this first salvo errupts around Prince of Wales, obtaining 1 hit...

For this scenario to be realistic, it is required that , between 6:00:05sec and 6:00:30sec, Prince of WAles to have moved onto a position crossing Bismarck's trajectory towards the sinking Hood. 25 seconds... 25 seconds x 14 meters per second = 350meters (maximum possible, in reality probably less then that).

So it DOESN'T appear realistic.

----

One critical aspect that needs be considered is Prinz Eugen film... My opinion is that the 55 seconds of continous firing that we see from Bismarck... represent filming done during the firing against Prince of Wales. We counted 5 or possibly 6 semi-salvos ... 20 or 24 shots ordered... in 55 seconds. Alot of shells put in the air in a small timeframe.
The implication (if the film is un-altered): Bismrck was firing for effect (maximum rate of fire) against Prince of Wales...
And the battle-timing for those 55 sec can be only after the destruction of Hood.. so, say after 6:00:30...

I'd say the 55 seconds need to be inserted somewhere between 6:00:30 and 6:03:00 (Bismarck starting to turn away chasing torpedoes).

What I'm trying to say is: it is POSSIBLE that Bismarck was firing for effect continously after the destruction of Hood... bombarding Prince of Wales with broadsides.

In turn, this means that , with such a heavy barrage of fire (20-24 shots per minute, or 6 to 8 shots every 20 seconds) , Prince of Wales was "hittable" by a large number of salvos... or semisalvos to be more exact.

Hope this wasn't to long and impossible to read......

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Alecsandros no not long and fully understandable, and I'm a bit stupid so I think you're safe with everyone else!

I think we have to take things like the PoW salvo map as a guide and not think they are written in stone.

Best wishes
Cag.

[alecsandros]

Hi All

Hi Alecsandros no not long and fully understandable, and I'm a bit stupid so I think you're safe with everyone else!

I think we have to take things like the PoW salvo map as a guide and not think they are written in stone.

Best wishes
Cag.

I'm a bit stupid as well :)
I'll try to draw something on the map,
Best

[alecsandros]

This is a rough sketch based on PoW map:

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi all,

Paul Cadogan wrote: "Here's what Terry said;
66. Were you looking at the "Hood" at the time of the expolsion?
Not at the actual moment of the explosion.
!!!! Then how could he know the precise time the hit took place???"

Hi Paul,
I missed one post from you, sorry.
How long do you think it took to him to "look at the Hood" after the explosion ? Not 2 minutes, I would guess less than 2 seconds.....
Hunter-Terry, whose timings were considered very reliable by the second board ("WITNESS'S EVIDENCE WAS LARGELY TAKEN FROM NOTES WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF THE ACTION AND THE TIMES TAKEN WERE ON THE SPOT") "DICTATED NOTES TO A MIDSHIPMAN" (see first board report) and he clearly dictated: 5:57 : Hood deck hit and 6:00 : Hood explosion.

Cag wrote: "Hunter-Terry puts the funnel hit at 06.01......."

Hi Mr.Cag,
Hunter-Terry dictated his times only in minutes not seconds. My timeline is:
1) Hood deck hit by PG at 5:57:30 / 5:57:40 (according to Jasper GAR and count of salvos)
2) Hood explosion apparent at 6:00:00 / 6:00:10 ("fatal" hit landed at around 5:59:50 /5:59:55)
3) CP hit at 6:00:50 (salvo fired at 6:00:25)
4) Funnel hit between 6:01:20 and 6:01:40
Times 1), 2) and 4) still fit Hunter-Terry notes. 3) is the timing established by Antonio in his analysis of the PG film frame where we see PoW salvo 16 fired just after a salvo landing around PoW.


Regarding the Bismarck switch fire rapidity, I don't know if 1 minute can be considered very fast or not in a battle that lasted in total 16 minutes and during which the simultaneous firing from British and German side lasted less than 7 minutes..... The Baron stated that "only a minimal correction" was needed and still there is the space (but not the shells count supporting evidence) for a last salvo aimed at Hood future point to be fired after the fatal one.


Bye, Alberto