Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Cag
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Cag » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi All

I'm afraid I was going to attempt to post something but in reality I really don't know what to say as I've probably said it so many times before.

We all have an opinion and are free to express it but because we have an opinion it does not make it a fact. The value of the credibility of Leach Wake-Walker and Tovey are opinions, they cannot be promoted as facts, nothing has been proven, it is an interpretation of evidences which can be argued either way, a thought is a thought not a fact.

Again it seems a free expression and debate has been stalled and the subject and progress halted. In all honesty I really don't want to continue with this as it seems totally pointless.

Could I ask Mr Rico to PM me to advise how to delete my membership, thanks.

Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:20 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

you wrote :

We all have an opinion and are free to express it ...


I agree, ... but it seems that you, ... like some other persons here in, ... are not willing to accept somebody else opinions when it comes to certain arguments.

There are opinions, ... evidences, ... official documents, ... milestones, ... and facts.

Surely it is not with some " what if " or " hypothetical scenario's " that anyone can think to put in discussion the whole and accurate work been done on the last 14 years on this battle re-construction.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Cag » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:05 pm

Hi All

Antonio I have stated before and will say it one last time I respect your work and your opinion and to suggest otherwise is very very unfair.

This thread was to discuss BC and PG salvos, to do so does not in any way disrespect your work and again to suggest it is, is very unfair. It was a group of like minded people discussing the relative pieces of evidence and providing their opinion hoping to work together to resolve inconsistencies.

As can be seen from my posts I am very willing to accept other people's opinion and modify mine to accommodate it. I have not called anyones work or opinion into question and ask if you can point out where you think I have done so. The discussion regarding the salvos had nothing to do with the conduct of Leach Wake-Walker or Tovey yet it is again brought into it.

I am happy to accept your milestones regarding the battle and happy to accept your opinion and publications regarding the three officers conduct. But that does not mean that I must unequivocally agree with your opinion regarding those men, especially if I do not believe that the case against them is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

I respect your work Antonio and you as a person and feel if I carry on posting on subjects only to have everything I and others have successfully debated and found common ground over pulled from under us I will inevitably fall out with you and that is not what I want.

The reason I have given up on this forum is because I can see no point. If everything has already been decided, whether it be fact or an opinion, then there is no point to any discussion. Everyone's opinion should be accepted.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:47 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

I see your points and I understand your feelings.

I am glad that you are pointing out that in every type of thread we can open about this battle on the last years, ... the 3 RN Officers involved on the " Cover Up " situation sooner or later are going to be called into the discussion.

It is not difficult to go back on this thread and on many others and realize who does it and why, what is the intent of it.

This is ridiculous and disturbing, ... because just as you said, ... everybody does have the right to discuss about any subject and provide his own opinion about it.

As you properly wrote, you are among the few willing to change his opinion when you realize something different, ... others do not very evidently, ... despite the evidence provided and back we are on the real intent and goal of the whole discussion on the table.

Despite those disturbing " activities " ... I think that this thread as helped a lot on realizing the Prinz Eugen firing sequence, ... and Alberto work is remarkable and precise, ... much better than my one on 2005, ... and consequently it deserve a lot of attention.

I do not see the reason to leave, ... since all the discussions are still open and the work can be improved a lot as you can see, ... the only thing we need to care about is to avoid to bring into the discussion all the time the " Cover Up " story, ... and those 3 Officers, ... to remain fair and do not work with " hidden agendas " with the only intent to discredit somebody works, ... trying to dismantle everything because in this way somebody hopes to go back to the common knowledge of 15 years ago about this battle.

Nothing will be anymore like before, ... somebody better realize it, ... that part of the work is done, published ... and we ( ALL ) better take it out from future discussions on other DS battle subjects.

I hope you will change your mind about leaving from here ... and remain with us having fun about this old naval battle.

I really do.

Respectfully, ... bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:20 am

@Cag

Sean,

I hope you will stay, but I understand you reasons very well.

@Antonio

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
To describe Adm Lutjens official radio message to SKL, ... a " vague description " ... of the MAIN event he was talking about on that dedicated radio message, ... is simply ridicolous.

Adm_Lutjens_radio_msg_Hood_explosion.jpg


As you can read : Hood exploded at 06.00, after almost ( innerhalb ) 5 minutes engagement with Bismarck.



For a native speaker Lütjens message is very vage indeed.

"Heute früh 0600 Uhr" is a very ambiguous phrase. I would take it as "about 0600". I would expect at least "um" for a certain point in time: "um 0600". And even then it could still mean 0557 or 0603, because 0600 can include a few minutes before and after. "Um 0558" would be totally clear, but not "um 0600" and "heute früh 0600" even less.

In German you could even read:
The battle started (about) 0600 and then Hood was destroyed within 5 minutes.
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:51 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

clear enough Marc, ... many thanks for your input.

Lucky us that message it is not the only very valid input we have, and we have evaluated many others on the dedicated thread.

For example ...

... the open fire by Jasper at 05.55, ... with the boat deck on Hood started at 05.57, ... and the PoW passing close to Hood sinking ( in the luft ) at 06.01 ...

... once associated with Hunter-Terry very precise timings according to the RN Admiralty, ... of the Hood boat deck fire starting at 05.57 ( perfectly aligned with Jasper ) ... and Hood exploding at 06.00, ...

... do provide us a very solid confirmation of Adm Lutjens being close to perfection with his radio message timings.

Photo Nh 69724 once associated to the PoW salvoes 13th and 14th, ... does provide a visual confirmation too, ... with the PoW gunnery plot, ... and the photo Nh 69731 after ... :wink:

But we all know those inputs since 12 years ...

Anyway, can I ask you to translate and provide us your interpretation in same way of the phrases written on the Prinz Eugen battle map I have posted above ... thanks in advance.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby wadinga » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:01 pm

All,

Since we have endured all the stuff, again, which proves that such and such a splash in the water is definitively and immutably a particular shell fired at a particular time, and we will not get an acknowledgement of what "Gegner fliegt in die luft" means when Hood is both graphically depicted and texturally described as being destroyed after 06:01? let us specifically discuss PG's firing.

As is clear from the remarks which annotate the PG map there was distribution of fire muddle in the inadequate "Open Fire" instruction from Lutjens. Jasper, and probably Brinkmann, in his illegible annotation, observe on this. Is it possible that a native Gernan speaker can estimate what the PG captain wrote? Jasper obviously considered this a failure in the command structure that fire distribution had not been originated correctly by the flagship, or was inadequately transmitted to him as Gunnery Officer by his own Commander. He took the responsibility of choice himself, and engaged the leading vessel in the absence of the instructions he should have had. He made a point of highlighting, in the official record this inadequacy of instruction. He had a point to make. He knew, as did the British that it would be preferable to avoid his shells landing at the same time as Bismarck's but target designation and de-synchronisation were not organized. Brinkmann annotated again. What did he say? That he approved, or that an instruction had been received from the flagship, but accepted that it had not been passed to Jasper? The deciphering of these annotations are essential to the understanding of PG's firing. These obviously had to be added to this copy of the Official Record after Brinkmann had signed it off as Commanding Officer. What additional amplification did Brinkmann need to add in "illegible" handwriting that was not in his first submission?

That there was criticism of Jasper in Brinkmann's annotations is clear from the next one, where he describes Jasper's decision to continue to use HE, as he had inaccurately identified his targets as cruisers, when the splashes nearby are clearly major calibre. "Beachtlich!" is translated as "remarkable" but is not Brinkmann actually saying "remarkably stupid- considering we were being shot at by battleships!" It was surely Brinkmann's responsibility to identify the nature of the target, and Jasper's to recommend the correct ammunition. Again, Command had let Jasper down, and subsequently criticised him.

It goes without saying that target designation should have been established for Jasper long before the actual open fire instruction, so as to let him create a viable FC solution before the first salvo left the guns. He must have been as frustrated as McMullen was when PoW slewed towards the enemy, spoiling McMullen's firing, when having started hitting, he was suddenly ordered to switch to the left target, and all the more galling to be told that was the specified target all along. :shock:

Later, with nobody firing at PG, Jasper's target practice is disrupted by PG gyrating all over the ocean, dodging imaginary torpedoes, supposed fired by a ship never closer than 18,000 yds and which timing-wise would have to fired them when at about 25,000 yds!

It is interesting to read in the KTB that he had to order the targeting officer to switch to the second target, suggesting that even with the British ships so close to one another, it was no easy matter. This is important when it is alleged that Bismarck saw Hood explode at 06:00, absorbed the stunning fact that she was finished as a threat, re-desigated PoW as target via the Lutjens/Lindemann/Schneider/targeting officer command chain, got a firing solution and including flight time managed to hit her 50 seconds later. But then this is a "proven incontrovertible/uncontestable fact" :cool:

The "facts" are not yet established and there is still much to learn.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:17 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

I take note that you do not support anymore the 05.58 for the Hood explosion, ... it was again another unsuccessful trial from your side, ... and back you are with the 06.01 trial now.
For the Hood explosion analysis, please refer to the proper thread we already have.

You should take note also of the other annotation at 05.58 : " Gegner brennt ", ... and translate that as well.

Back on this thread subject, ... since you are now doing some analysis on the German Officer battle conduct, ... I just hope that nobody will like to do to you now ... the same treatment you did to everybody analyzing the Royal Navy Officers battle conduct and decisions.

For me no differences, ... Kriegsmarine or Royal Navy ... it is the same for my battle events analysis.

Jasper versus Brinkmann, ... it is a very interesting argument ... I have spent one entire day with an old gentlemen in Kiel talking about them, ... and Schmundt ... and in Salzburg too ... with another one, ... both at Denmark Strait on PG.

Some facts are well known and properly documented already ... but if you like to provide us a different version according to your evidences and evaluations, ... we are all here waiting to read it ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Byron Angel
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Byron Angel » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:39 pm

Native German speakers, please feel free to correct me, but "Gegner brennt" by my understanding translates to "Enemy is burning" of "Enemy is afire". It would not suggest that a major explosion has occurred.

Byron

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:55 pm

Byron Angel wrote:Native German speakers, please feel free to correct me, but "Gegner brennt" by my understanding translates to "Enemy is burning" of "Enemy is afire". It would not suggest that a major explosion has occurred.

Byron


That's what I would think as well.

The interesting thing is that the fire is shown as ~1 minute after the turn. This would set the timing of the fire as ~0556 according to PoW's salvo chart [which also corresponds to the notation, thereon, of "Hood out of action"] and subtracting ~2 minutes from 0601:20, we get ~0559 as the timing for the explosion, again relative to PoW's salvo plot.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Hello everybody,

the German timings in a summary document :

KM_document_timings_01.jpg
KM_document_timings_01.jpg (86.29 KiB) Viewed 389 times


to be compared with Hunter-Terry timings ( most reliable British side taken timings :

Hunter_Terry_01.jpg
Hunter_Terry_01.jpg (96.68 KiB) Viewed 389 times


to be noticed the perfect correlation at 05.57 on both versions regarding the hit on the Hood mainmast base starting the fire.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:56 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

the German timings in a summary document :



What was the origin of the KM document?

This is a Google translation:

George in front of you. Distance over 300 hm. At 05.53 clock Hood and Prince of Wales open to about 290 hm. The fire on the dressing. At 05.55 clock it is returned by "Prinz Eugen" and "Bismarck". Both ships bombard Hood first and lie nadn the first volley on the target. At 05:59 clock after the 6th volley fleet commanded by Winkspruch to Prince Eugene change of destination to the opponent on the furthest left. (Prince of Wales) Prince Eugene is seen at 05:57 am when his second salvo is at the height of the aft mast on Hood a fast spreading fire Apparently airplane hall or gasoline. The artillery is well on target, 2 hits are observed with certainty, a small fire Prince Eugen observes heavy shells on either side of his own ship in the immediate vicinity, but is not hit.
At 6:01 o'clock a very strong detonation on hood occurs. A high column of iron parts is visible. A heavy black smoke cloud covers the ship, which sinks rapidly over the stern and turns around 180 degrees. The ammunition consumption on

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:57 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

here you go :

OKM_15543.jpg
OKM_15543.jpg (43.21 KiB) Viewed 370 times


This document was listed as reference on my 2005 Denmark Strait battle re-construction for Storia Militare being a source ( OKM 15543 ) at the reference number 56, as you can easily verify on this website articles, as well as on the HMS Hood DS documentation resource website/link of my re-construction :

http://www.kbismarck.com/articles.html

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... trait3.htm

Reference_Nr_56_Storia_Militare_DS.jpg
Reference_Nr_56_Storia_Militare_DS.jpg (28.28 KiB) Viewed 356 times



The Bundesarchiv document : RM 7 / 1448 tells basically the same things and the exact same timings.

Hope that from now on, ... nobody will like to play anymore with the battle timings without having read at least the already available official documents that somebody else has used in order to realize a published work.

Of course everything can be changed, assuming we will find better and more reliable Official information sources, ... at least.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:22 pm

In any event the above was little more than a summary of PE's KTB and doesn't provide enough info for any analysis.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:10 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

obviously the inputs are all coming from other available official documents made on different timeframes during ( KTB, battle map, .... etc ) and immediately after ( different level written reports ) the action.

Those documents ( OKM 15543, RM7 / 1448, AH June briefing ) are the Kriegsmarine Official position about the Op.Rheinubung and the battle on the Denmark Strait.

In the other hand, the Battle Summary Number 5 did the same at various stages, ... so it dos not have to surprise that once they had captured those Kriegsmarine Official documents, ... the Royal Navy Admiralty did update/amend their ones.

The German key battle timings are clearly listed and stated, well explained in their event logic.
The 2 minutes delay on opening fire after being engaged by the Hood and PoW is a clear statement.
It explains what both Prinz Eugen and Bismarck did after Adm Lutjens JD ( Jot Dora ) order, and closing any doubt possibility, confirming what the photo NH 69722 shows.

Very important, ... a key synchronization checkpoint, ... is the 05.57 hit by Prinz Eugen on Hood mainmast base starting the fire, because it does correlate perfectly Prinz Eugen event timings with Hunter-Terry event timings on the British side.

The only different time between Hunter-Terry timings and Prinz Eugen timings is the Hood explosion time, that for Hunter -Terry was at 06.00 and for Prinz Eugen was at 06.01, ... when for Hunter-Terry Bismarck had already changed target and hit ( almost immediately for Capt Leach ) the PoW.

We do have a dedicated thread about it where we did evaluate all the available inputs in details.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6314

In summary, having established that in happened on that time slot 06.00-06.01 we can again refer to an available photo, the NH 69724 where we can correlate this event with the PoW fired salvoes 13th and 14th, obtaining the exact time with their minute/seconds from the PoW gunnery plot.

The overall analysis will easily determine that Adm Lutjens was right with his radio message, ... Hood exploded at 06.00 after around 5 minutes engagement by the Bismarck, ... from 05.55, ... until 06.00.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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