Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
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wadinga
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby wadinga » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Hello Antonio,

You have said,

The overall analysis will easily determine that Adm Lutjens was right with his radio message

whereas you have now supplied (and once again I applaud you making this public :clap: :clap: :clap: ) an official KM summary document, presumably using all evidence including interviews with surviving officers, signals and other material available in 1941, some of which may not have survived to the present day, confirming the inference from the PG KTB that Hood exploded not at 06:00 at all, but after 06:01 as reported in the KTB.

You further observe you referenced and were aware of, this document in your 2005 publication. You are quite right that many of us here have not been as diligent as you in discovering this original material, although Marc has published much original material.

Is it true to say that your "overall analysis" developed over all the years since then, concluded that the KM document is incorrect?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:24 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you asked :

Is it true to say that your "overall analysis" developed over all the years since then, concluded that the KM document is incorrect ?


Not all the document and his contained information are incorrect, ... for the above part only the 06.01 is an incorrect input based on the PG KTB, as I already wrote several times on the dedicated thread.

This is valid for this document as well as for many other documents, ... both sides, ... some contains not intentional incorrect statements written on them, ... some intentionally written incorrect for the known war time propaganda reasons / needs.

But please, ... I do not want to re-open a new discussion about it here now, ... so take my words just as a recap of what we have been thru on last years.

This battle re-construction work has been based on all the official available documents I have found on 14 years of researches on both sides.

The battle time is defined between 05.52 and 30 seconds, when HMS Hood opened fire until 06.09 when Bismarck ceased fire on the first main morning action.

All the events have been recorded on many documents both sides with some milestone times.

We have gone thru all those events on many threads on this forum.

The events sequence and their timing is well described by Hunter-Terry and Jasper, ... other inputs can be correlated on many different ways, ... as you have seen done by me, ... and not only me, ... thru those years.

A very good example was Thorsten Wahl discovering the Bismarck shell splashes close to PoW on the PG film when PoW salvo 16th departed from her being aside the Hood sinking wreck smoke cloud, ... that was a great help, ... one of the many I received here in.

That 06.01 entry is incorrect because we have the photo NH 69724 telling us more precisely when that event occurred, ... at it was very close to the PoW fired salvo 14th, ... as we can all easily see ourselves.

But again we have already long discussed about it on the dedicated Hood exploding time thread, ... so nothing new about it.

I provided the KM document so everybody can see the timings before that event listed, ... especially the PG and Bismarck open fire time.

The 05.57 synch timing with Hunter-Terry is the key, ... to link both sides correctly ... and after it will be the photo NH 69731 to become the second key timing checkpoint both sides ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:57 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you asked :

What about "Storia Militare" 281? :think:


It is just a summary of all the many discussions we had in here recently, ... mainly regarding the " Cover Up " and the " Articles of War ", ... on the British side of the battle, ... not the definitive second version of the whole DS battle work.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/STORIA-MILI ... 5972013949

But you should not be surprised about this summary, ... having long discussed with me about it here in.

Bye Antonio :D


I cannot find this edition online. Is there a way to purchase or read it online?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:03 am

@Duncan and all:

Hi, the article (only available for the time being in Italian language) published on "Storia Militare" 281 (February 2017) by Antonio (with a very limited contribution from my side) is available as part of the magazine (formerly directed by E.Bagnasco and now by M.Brescia), and old copies can be usually ordered to the following address "arretrati@edizionistoriamilitare.it". For shipment in Italy the total price is 10€ (to be paid to IBAN IT 80 I 03332 01400 000000947741), but in case of shipment abroad, I would suggest to write an email to the above address and to specify the shipment location to check the feasibility and cost of the shipment.

Of course, Antonio and I have a (decent quality) PDF copy that we would be glad to share with the friends here who have contributed to a (heated but fair) discussion over the past years.

Please, in case you are interested to receive the PDF copy of the article, send me a private message with an email address able to receive a 9.3 Mbytes file, and I will let you have it.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:12 pm

dunmunro wrote:It is stated that PE opened fire at 0555, fired 6 salvos at Hood, then switched targets to PoW at ~0559

We need to look at this more closely. The first issue is that it is claimed that PE took ~4 minutes to fire 6 salvos! Really?

2ndly Jasper states that the last salvo fired at PE was unobserved by him because of an order to change targets to PoW. Schmalenbach states that Hood was destroyed just after the 6th salvo landed.

Here's the timing of events as recorded by Suffolk:

Phase 0550 (B) to 0851 (B)

18. 0550 (B). Suffolk's course 220°, 29 knots, following the enemy.

0553 (B). Heavy gun flashes bearing 185°. Half a minute later Bismarck opened fire to port.

0556½ (B). Prinz Eugen opened fire to port.

0559 (B). Hood blew up.

0600 (B). Enemy bore 208°.

(Suffolk/Ellis narrative)


Suffolk was not firing nor being fired at and consequently could make accurate notes.

If we correct the timing to match PoW's salvo chart we get:

0552:30 Hood opens fire
~0553:00-05 Bismarck open fire (confirmed by Leach, Rowell, Brooke)
0556 PE opens fire
0558:30 Hood blows up just after PE's 6th salvo lands and is witnessed by Schmalenbach.

The KM states that PE received no open fire order from Bismarck but PE's war diary states that PE did receive an order from Bismarck to change targets to PoW. Brinkman must have decided to get into the battle but it is clear that he did so only after Bismarck opened fire.

What seems to have happened:

0552:30 - Hood opens fire (all times as per PoW's AFCT timing)
Lutjens delayed the order to open fire until 0553 causing some anxiety amongst Bismarck's FC team.
0553 - PoW and Bismarck open fire nearly simultaneously.

0556 - PE and Brinkmann opens fire without orders from Lutjens. Somehow the impression is gained on PE that Bismarck did not open fire until 0555 but this is clearly not the case and it seems certain that Bismarck fired first and PE followed her lead.

0558 - PE fires her 6th salvo. Jasper is ordered to change target to PoW. His director moved over to PoW and he doesn't observe the FoS nor does he see Hood explode.

0558:30 - PE's 6th salvo lands and is witnessed by Schmalenbach through the (10.5cm) director.
~0558:35 - a salvo from Bismarck straddles and Hood explodes about 3-5 seconds after PE's 6th salvo lands and is witnessed by Schmalenbach just before he changes the 10.5cm battery target to PoW.


Paymaster Bailey from Norfolk:
"...I noted in my notebook that "HOOD" was on fire two minutes after she first opened fire, and that she blew up four minutes after that..."


Commander Porter from Suffolk:

"...The gun flashes started from the port quarter and were immediately followed by gun flashes ahead..."


Wake-Walker's recorded statements:
4:38:
"...very soon the Hood opened fire, followed by Bismark, PoW and the cruiser...".

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:18 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

to correctly realize the open fire sequence, ... you must use both sides information and ... the photo evidence too, ... especially the photo NH 69722.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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